Yesterday my mail could not get through. (I was not registered sub-
scribers) Because there came reply I post the original:

/*---*/
In article > HIX HUNGARY,  writes:
> A minority among the first Magyar settlers of Hungary  was of Mosaic creed
>(see: Kiss, A.: 11th Century Khazar Rings from Hungary with Hebrew Letters
>and Signs, in: Acta Archaeologica Acad. Scient. Hungarica 22,1970 pp. 341-348)

After reading those arabic sources I don't agree with you on this.
Few rings does not prove anything, they can be either simple jewelry
or looted stuff without any religious meaning. In those graves there
were found plenty of arabic coints with texts on them praying allah,
and that does not mean that the Hungarian has spoken arabic. AFAIK,
there were found a silver decoration plate with a cross in the mid-
dle garnished around with tipical steppian nomadic motives. This
neither means that the Hungarian who happened to wear that was a
christian.

Back to the possible jewish religion of the three Kabar tribes
which joined to the Hungarians: i simply can't believe that there
were any of them on jewish religion. I'll tell you why.

The arabic sources unanimously mention that the jewsish leadership
was a very thin, closed stratum, who only could manage to rule the
christian and muslim majority (they mention 30 mosks and minarets
only in Itil, in the Khazar capital) because they used them against
each other.(Not to mention the pagan nomad tribes now.) Maszudi men-
tiones that the christians and the muslims never agreed in anything.
The jewish leadership had to keep together very tightly to manage
staying on the top, playing bisantic tricks against each other would
surely have destroyed their power. Their number was, according to
Ibn Rustah, no more than 4000.

Large part of active soldiers were muslims (alan) tribes who escaped
away from the wars in arabia and iran. They got land, in exchange for
it they had to serve in the army when the king fought against anybody
but muslims.

Ibn Fadhlan describes a very interesting story. The Khazar leader
heard that muslins destroyed a synagogue in Babunds. As a retali-
ation he had a minaret destroyed and the muezzins executed --- in
his kingdom, in his capital.

Knowing this, together with the information of other sources, I
can imagine that three of the muslim tribes said that it is quite
enough, and joined to the hungarians, and they were those three
Kabar tribes. According to the Annales Iuvavenses Maximi they
were not aid nations of the Hungarians that had to fight in the
first line but partners posessing equal rights in the alliance
and attacked the West independently from the seven other tribes.
("Primum bellum cum Ungaris ad Weniam. Secundum bellum cum
Cowaris ad Culmite")

So there is a big chance that large part (even majority) of the
conquester tribes were on muslim religion.

Tamas

This was a good one, I really liked it.
Do you know more?
Gabi

Paolo Agostini (oh, yes, our new *Italian* friend) is not so innocent as
Martha Bihari thinks. The very title of his posting, "Eva Balogh is a
pathological liar," tells us that he is an avid reader of
soc.culture.magyar--where my other friend, Andras "Szucs," wrote a
*charming* piece with the same title.

Eva Balogh

I am going to a retirement dinner of a cardiologist friend. I would like
to propose a toast in Italian. Any suggestions?? I need  ideas by
tomorrow.

>In article > HIX HUNGARY,  writes:
>> A minority among the first Magyar settlers of Hungary  was of Mosaic creed
>>(see: Kiss, A.: 11th Century Khazar Rings from Hungary with Hebrew Letters
>>and Signs, in: Acta Archaeologica Acad. Scient. Hungarica 22,1970 pp. 341-348
)
>
>After reading those arabic sources I don't agree with you on this.
>Few rings does not prove anything, they can be either simple jewelry
>or looted stuff without any religious meaning. In those graves there
>were found plenty of arabic coints with texts on them praying allah,
>and that does not mean that the Hungarian has spoken arabic. AFAIK,
>there were found a silver decoration plate with a cross in the mid-
>dle garnished around with tipical steppian nomadic motives. This
>neither means that the Hungarian who happened to wear that was a
>christian.
>
>Back to the possible jewish religion of the three Kabar tribes
>which joined to the Hungarians: i simply can't believe that there
>were any of them on jewish religion. I'll tell you why.
>
>The arabic sources unanimously mention that the jewsish leadership
>was a very thin, closed stratum, who only could manage to rule the
>christian and muslim majority (they mention 30 mosks and minarets
>only in Itil, in the Khazar capital) because they used them against
>each other.(Not to mention the pagan nomad tribes now.) Maszudi men-
>tiones that the christians and the muslims never agreed in anything.
>The jewish leadership had to keep together very tightly to manage
>staying on the top, playing bisantic tricks against each other would
>surely have destroyed their power. Their number was, according to
>Ibn Rustah, no more than 4000.
>
>Large part of active soldiers were muslims (alan) tribes who escaped
>away from the wars in arabia and iran. They got land, in exchange for
>it they had to serve in the army when the king fought against anybody
>but muslims.
>
>Ibn Fadhlan describes a very interesting story. The Khazar leader
>heard that muslins destroyed a synagogue in Babunds. As a retali-
>ation he had a minaret destroyed and the muezzins executed --- in
>his kingdom, in his capital.
>
>Knowing this, together with the information of other sources, I
>can imagine that three of the muslim tribes said that it is quite
>enough, and joined to the hungarians, and they were those three
>Kabar tribes. According to the Annales Iuvavenses Maximi they
>were not aid nations of the Hungarians that had to fight in the
>first line but partners posessing equal rights in the alliance
>and attacked the West independently from the seven other tribes.
>("Primum bellum cum Ungaris ad Weniam. Secundum bellum cum
>Cowaris ad Culmite")
>
>So there is a big chance that large part (even majority) of the
>conquester tribes were on muslim religion.
>
>Tamas

Jewish presence in 9th and 10th century Hungary is probable but not certain.
After coming to Hungary, the Kabars lived in Bihar County, in the
northeastern parts of Hungary, as the Kabars had settled along and east of
the Tisza River.  The Kabars migrated westward around the year
895 into Hungary due to revolts and rebellions which had occurred around
the years 862 and 881 (Golden+ 479; Toth).  One of the  Khabar clans
which settled between the Danube and the Tisza rivers was called Zsido
("Jewish")  Varsany, Kaliz, and Sze'kely were the names of the three Khabar
tribes who settled in Hungary (Herenyi).   The Khazar language was spoken
in Hungary until at
least the middle of the 10th century(Dunlop 197-198).  The Khabars in Hungary
eventually abandoned Judaism for Christianity, and abandoned the Khazar
language for Magyar (Toth).  Nathan Ausubel asserted that most of the
Khazars who migrated to northern Hungary "in time... were absorbed by the
local Christian population." (Ausubel 130)      Magyar-Khazar connections
were further strengthened when the Hungarian Duke Taksony who invited
Khazar Jews to settle in Pannonia
(Hungary) during the 10th century (Dunlop 262; Koestler 105, 142).
The Magyars apparently adopted the Khazars' dual-kingship system, as they
had a kende (army
chief) and a jula (overruler) (Golden 19).  Hebrew characters were used
in Hungary during the 11th century by  the Khazars(Scheiber).  11th century
Khazar rings with
Hebrew letters and signs were found near Pecs at Kozar village(Kiss).
        According to the Hungarian legend Magor and Hunor, these two
brothers one day went on an adventure to Maeotis.  Near the Persian border
they found Bolgarian and Alan women.  They were
celebrating the holiday of the trumpet (Rosh-Hashanah).  The two brothers
and their escorts took the women and their riches with them.  The story
preserves the Khazar-Turkic-Bolgar-Alan connection of the
Hungarians.According to Professor Zoltan Kosztolnyik the Magyars were a
partly Israelitish people in the ninth century. He writes that according to
a 14th c. account the Magyars of the Russian prairies (Lebedia, Etelkoz)
married Jewish women, or women of the Jewish religion. A smaller portion of
the Magyars' ancestors was converted by Bishop Quardusat, alias Theokletos
of Armenia around 569. (Five eleventh century Hungarian kings : their
policies and  their relations with Rome.  Boulder : East European
Quarterly; New York : Distributed   by Columbia University Press, 1981.)

The scattered evidence show traces of Jewish presence before the 11th
century, but not a lasting one.

Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> says:
>
>Paolo Agostini (oh, yes, our new *Italian* friend) is not so innocent

Isn't it a Portugese name?

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 ICPUG..Commodore=64 ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list!

At 20:15 17/04/96 GMT, George Szaszvari wrote:
>In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> says:
>>
>>Paolo Agostini (oh, yes, our new *Italian* friend) is not so innocent
>
>Isn't it a Portugese name?
>
Hi, George!

No, Paolo Agostini is indeed an Italian name. I am not sure what the
Portugese version of the name would be - maybe someone else on the List
knows - but I am pretty sure it would be different than the Italian.

TTFN :-)

Johanne

e-mail - 

To Peter Hidas--Holy Cow!  Who knew these things?!?  How come nobody told
me this stuff when I was in graduate studying medieval Hungarian history?

Thanks for the fascinating information!

Udv.,Be'la

To B. Eva, Paulo, and the rest,

Excuse me for having stepped in without understanding the context.  As
I said, I've not had time to be a 'full participating member' of this
group; in fact, I normally only read those subjects that are of
particular interest to me.

When I read the note from Paulo Agostini, I thought surely he must not
be serious.  But the tone of writing was totally serious - even after
reading the message a couple of times I came to the (mistaken)
conclusion that he had really made this error.  I guess having a
dry sense of humour is not without its setbacks.

Enough on this.  Subject dropped.

jim.


_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/


James D. Doepp
Department of Economic Theory
University of Miskolc (Hungary)




  By meanes whereof, they became lazie and slothfull in their dayly
endevours, even like to our Citizens; not minding or medling with
their wonted affaires: but, as a waiting for death every houre,
imployed all their paines, not in caring any way for themselves, their
cattle, or gathering the fruits of the earth, or any of their
accustomed labours; but rather wasted and consumed, even such as
were for their instant sustenance.

Boccaccio, _The Decameron_


_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/