Peto"fi's original name was Petrovics.  Greetings, Robert

Dear Joe Pannon (Josephus Pannonius? Sounds like a typical pseudo-
name, if you excuse me),

        Since you addressed a question to me, I'm gonna answer it and
apologize to all other readers who might be a bit bored by this topic.

        No, I don't think that any definitive and final book on Hungarian
origins has been written and I don't think that any scientific or scholarly
book should be read as a Bible. If you had read my remarks a bit more
carefully, you could have noticed that I myself have pointed out various
problems which are unsolved and (I'm afraid) will remain so.

        BUT: I do think that if somebody is interested in a historical or any
kind of scientific problem seriously, wants to know facts and have a balanced
view, he should turn to specialists simply because they happen to know more
about it and not to journalists, especially not Anglo-American ones who
usually cannot even locate Hungary on a world map. If you suspect that I have
prejudices against journalists, then you got it right: I always disliked the
typical journalistic attitude which is arrogantly overconfident (I can write
an article about anything, I just ask three people I met last week somewhere)
and at the same time has an elegant disregard for facts and truth. Besides
that, in the West and America everybody is considered a Hungarian specialist
who visited Budapest twice.
        The Herald Tribune article quoted in no. 221 (thanks for it!) is a
brilliant example of this:

> Two years ago, Eotvos Lorand University began offering courses in Tibetan
and Mongolian ...

        When I started university back in 1988, both departments had already
existed happily and were offering their courses to anybody who was
interested. A friend of mine graduated as a Mongolian specialist years ago
and now works in Canada. Lorincz L. Laszlo or Leslie L. Lawrence, who is
better known for his science-fiction and crime stories, also happens to be a
professor of Mongolian.

        Now, if you cannot trust the author of that article for such basic
facts (it would have taken a phone call to ELTE to find that out), how can
you trust him with far more complex problems like the research of Hungarian
origins?

        Another remark, this time on Istvan Kiszely, whom I already mentioned
earlier, and who is quoted in the Herald Tribune article as an
"ethnographer", although he is an anthropologist. Never mind! Now, it may be
worth knowing that Kiszely's theories about the uyghur connection are pretty
old (he was lecturing about it in my secondary school already in the mid-80s)
and have nothing to do with the political changes in Hungary but nevertheless
(to the best of my knowledge) no other authority supports them. Of course,
that doesn't mean that he is necessarily wrong but at least it should be
noted that it is his private theory, not some kind of new scientific
consensus emerging among Hungarian historians or whatever.

        By the way, I don't know how good an anthropologist Kiszely is, but I
do know that he was the anthropological leader of the Petofi-expedition which
went to look for Petofi's remains in Siberia and returned with a female
skeleton as evidence, which is a somewhat embarrassing malheur for a
professional anthropologist. After all this, I certainly wouldn't ask him to
exhume my grandfather. He seems to me pretty much the kind of researcher who
is certain to find something even before he started looking for it, which is
quite a dangerous attitude in science.  But that's not to say that he is
necessarily wrong with the uyghur thing. I can only repeat myself: there are
so many obscure things about the origin of that ethnic group which was called
Hungarians a thousand years ago that I very much doubt whether we'll ever
have definitive answers for all the questions. HOWEVER: You can only claim
something in science if you have enough evidence to back it up and if you
carefully measured all other evidences which testify against it. My problem
with these recent origin-hunters (I'm not talking about Kiszely now but
people who hail Attila as the first Hungarian in the Carpathian) is that they
don't have the faintest idea about how a scholarly research should be done
but they read two novels on Attila and immediately know all the answers.

                That's all, bye.

                                Charlie

I would like to know where I could find a list of english words
translated into hungarian.  Please send this informaiton to
Dan Kovacs

Thanks.

i believe i accidentially sent just you this message, but maybe you can help
me.  I am looking for information on hungary's political party developements
over the past few years, say , back to 1989 or so. any information will be
greatly appreciated :-) or may be you could guide me to someone who would know
more about this type of info.
         sincerely,
  Dennis Poteat, East Carolina University NC.

Foreign investors have certainly less worry about packing up
and going elsewhere when grants and tax-consessions run out.
I've just seen some health statistics (UK) for poor men aged 15-44,
9% more of them die than in 1980, while those in rich districts
improved their figure by 15%. In Glasgow suiside is the second
biggest killer for young males. Apperently, unemployment doesn't
improve your health... All that "growth" and "prosperity" did nothing
to improve unemployment figures, or standard of living for the poor
here... Hungary must be different, it will work there... allegedly...
You don't need them poor anyway ... not good enough as consumers
even anymore, would be cheaper just to shoot them before they
make trouble... (see Brasil and Mexico any time now for experiments)
- Smiley - (bitter)

Hey why all this obsession with history, OK those who ignore it are
condemned to repeat it ;> )but great empires have to go forward again.

To the tune of "come all ye rolling minstrels and together we will try",
by FAIRPORT CONVENTION on their album LIEG AND LIEF

"Come all ye roaming Magyars and together we will try,
to crack the secret of our Birthplace
and the Origin of why
we came to the Duna and laid us down to die".

Hey you guys sure its important to know where you came from,
but far better to know where you are going !

Two of the most famous Civilizations have pondered this conundrum.
 Look at thegreatest empire (apart from the Austro-Magyar one of course
! ) Yup the British empire - now that was an empire!!, I mean the sun never
set on it. Yes OK so the sun never actualy could be seen rising in England
(what with the photo-chemical fog derived from the not yet horseless
carriages (oops sorry Kotchis) so they had to go somewhere to find a few
photons and sunbeams. Well actually the English sent the Scots (to
count the money), the Welsh (to teach them foreign folks how to play rugby),
and the Irish - well someone had to teach them foreigners  how to be made fun
of.

So whats this got to do with this "list", well the average man in the street
has heard of maybe two Hungarians. One of them proves that if you want a
 lover...

  ""I have heard it said that the French and the Italians make the best
lovers, but I can say from personal experience and anicdotal evidence, that
Hungarians actually deserve this title!  Comments appreciated!
        -The big cool guy! ""

Zza Zza seems to think that America has the best lovers, although the fact she
 went to America and married 7 or 8 of them could well disprove this theory (do
we know her views about traffic cops,  apart from the fact that they get younge
r
each year ?). The other famous Magyar is of course Mr Rubic!!!!!, Does it add u
p
that the boss of Intel is supposed to be of Hungarian stock(not if you are a
Pentium I suppose - but it could just be that old reverse hungarian notation.

Come on you Magyars you've got a great country, beautiful scenery, talented
people who come out of the swing door ahead of you having gone in behind
[I know I worked in Hungary from between 1990 to 1992, with a "nasty" ;>)
Angol company buying State assets at a knock-down price, but
then that was all we could do with them in the end - but I digress],
so who gives a hoot if some Chinese guys set off from some obscure province ;-)
to Vienna to sell Gunpowder Tea (actually ground-up paprika) and after stopping
off at the Gellert for aquick soak in the medicinal waters decided that they
 were
not going to  go any further!!

The answer is in the Blood-groups, you guys are supposed to be high in A+
are'nt you , which proves that you are related to the folks in the Far East
(who also have lots of that stuff floating around in their bodies)

Anyway its time there was aspecial smiley for Magyars so how about this one
 ( :-{)  to start the ball rolling

Micky Allen

On Mon, 13 Feb 1995 19:03:39 -0500 > said:
>There might be little popular enthusiasm for foreign investment in Hungary
>but let us repeat it again: this is the only way to advance Hungary's
>economic growth. There is not enough domestic capital and therefore there is
>no other way.

--This principle was apparently behind the Kadar government's endorsement
of joint ventures after 1972.  But it seems to me that there are two broad
problems that have to be solved--and the first is unsolveable.  First,
there is the heavy historical hand of Trianon.  Post-Trianon Hungary
lacks raw materials and energy.  Therefore, Hungary is dependent on
the outside for these things.  Second, the post-Second World War
record on economic policy is very unstable and has shifted back
and forth between centralized planning and encouragement of
decentralized ventures in a way that must alarm outside investors.
I think that one might argue that the recent hotel deal may sound
to outsiders that Rakosi and Kadar are alive and well and still
contesting for power.  Nothing can likely be done about Trianon, but
one can certainly argue that something has to be done about
developing a consistent economic policy  over time.

 Perhaps within a few years, thanks to these foreign investment,
>there will be enough domestic capital accumulation and Hungarian
>enterpreneurs will be able to buy out some of these foreign companies.
>
--Is this necessarily a good principle in today's world?  We now live
in a time when foreign investment is a reality, and although there were
grumblings about it, e.g. the fear that the Japanese were buying the
world, most business people have adjusted to it.  As I may have
mentioned, I live in a small Southern city.  The Japanese have built
a large factory that manufactures audio and video tapes.  British
Steel owns our local foundary.  Michelin owns our local tire factory,
and Mercedes is building a huge plant to make sport utility vehicles.
These factories are the core of our local economy.  There may have
been some initial reluctance, but now we have a Sakhura festival,
a Japanese sister city, and an Oktoberfest.  We are luring a Canadian
firm and another German firm.  The attitude now is:  Bring 'em on!
It appears to me that this is what Hungary will have to do--swallow
its nationalism and take the money and run.

>As for whether popular opinion will have any influence on decisions
>concerning foreign investment, the answer is no and it shouldn't. Just
>because the population views something in a certain light it doesn't mean
>that the population is right.

--It may not mean that the population is right, but in a democracy, that is
the view that is apt to prevail.  If the population opposes foreign investment
they will make internationals feel very uncomfortable and will not work
efficiently.  They may make their influence felt through political activity,
and politicians who depend upon public good will will bend.  This may be
Horn's dilemma.  Or at least one part of it.  From the information posted
on this list, he is an opportunistic politician who is trying to stay in
office at all costs.  Thus, he vacillates between taking what he perceives
to be--perhaps wrongly--a nationalistic position as on the hotel sale, and
good economic sense.

to development
 There has been decades of indoctrination
>against foreign investment describing it in terms of loss of national
>sovereignty.

--But there have been periods when foreign investment was sought,
countered by periods when the fear of outside domination was more
prominent.  I submit that it is this vacillation that is more likely
the problem.

 Xenophobia is not unique to Hungary, by the way. If I recall
>there was quite a bit of outcry against Japanese investments in the the
>United States.

--But it has died down as the paychecks came forth.  And then our
news media pointed out that the British own more businesses in America
than do the Japanese!  Why they even own Holiday Inn the
quintessential American motel chain!

      It's time to educate the Hungarian public on matters of economics.
>
--I think that there are people in Hungary who know what to do, but
nationalism gets in the way.  If an investor even smells the likelihood
that an investment might eventually be taken over by the government, or
regulated in an unfavorable way, he or she will look elsewhere.

Charles