Stowewrite ) wrote:
: The kind of knee-jerk anti-Americanism typified by Szalai and Durant is
: exactly why most Americans have a problem with sending our nation's
: soldiers anywhere for peacekeeping missions or anything else. It's obvious
: at this point that those wealthier European nations with the ability to
: actually intervene militarily have no intention of taking any substantive
: action to put a stop to the slaughter in Bosnia. Let the U.S. move,

        Well Mr. Stowewrite, it is the Western "powers" who did create
        this mess in Europe  about 75 years ago by cutting up a country
        and creating the artifical ones which are causing all the troubles
        now.Remember Trianon ? Please look up some history sources.
        The same 'cutting up' is happening in Bosnia now and I bet it will
        not solve any problem.It will only create more trouble down the line
        as before.So whose interest is this? Well war is business.The
        so-called Cold war is over ( or this is what the media tries to
        make people to believe).The US needs some 'business' again.It has
        a huge war machine which has to churn out products and sell it,
        but where? Where is conflict. So where are the conflicts ?
        Where you create them. Simple? Yes.You see,  the old rule :
        'Divide and rule them' is still very valid. It is easy stir up
        people in countries where there are different races/religious groups
        due to the fact that these countries were created artificially
        with these aims in mind from the start.So you want other rich
        countries take charge in Europe now? Well Germany could do it.
        But the moment it would move in that direction the media ( leftist
        as we all know them ) would be crying out loud all over that
        nazism started again,blah,blah... So it is wiser if Germany not
        intervene now.France ? Don't make me laugh.Britain ? Please not
        them with their anti-continental behaviour, they are oh so 'above'
        the continental masses.Please correct me if I'm wrong but the US
        would not go into this mess in Europe if it would not smell some
        business.( Also some election is coming up, isn't it ?)
        We should hope that there won't be a 'Vietnam' in Europe from this.
        Well I could go on but I know you see it differently isn't it ?

                                CSABA HARANGOZO
                                

: however reluctantly, to separate the combatants and try to restore some
: sense of a normal, peaceful life to the civilians who are suffering so
: terribly and it's a case of dat Ole Evil Empire on the prowl.

: You two are disgusting. You'd countenance continued murder of civilians on
: a Hitlerian scale simply because it offends your politically exquisite
: sensibilities to see American troops tackling a tough and unwanted job
: that no other nation will do. Tell us all, Durant and Szalai -- who will
: enforce the peace in Bosnia if not the United States? Are the Swedes
: likely to send 20,000 combat troops there and use their firepower
: effectively? Let's see -- who else will probably be acceptable to your
: beautiful, lofty judgement? The Danes? The Norwegians? The Swiss?

: And I don't mind your anti-Americanism all that much. You're welcome to
: your prejudices, no matter how juvenile I might think they are. What I
: object to is your mutual propensity to start whining about mistreatment
: when anyone dares to gesture in your direction and observe that the
: emperor has no clothes. If you're both going to use this public forum to
: promote anti-American views, have the guts to stand up and take
: responsibility for those views.

: Szalai ur, nothing saddens me more than a Canadian eager and willing to
: attack the United State at any turn. I love Canada and her people. I can
: think of no other nation in the world that represents so many of the most
: noble, worthwhile traits of which humans are capable. Canada has done her
: duty in Bosnia against all odds as part of the UN peacekeeping force. At a
: time when much of the West should hang its collective head in shame for
: the inaction and cowardice which led to tragedy on such a grand scale in
: Bosnia, Canadians can take great pride in their willingness to do what's
: right and decent. I hope and pray that you are not at all representative
: of Canadian public opinion. I don't think you are.

: Comrade Durant, your reflexive anti-Americanism is less appalling to me. I
: realize there is a certain segment of middle- and upper-class Britons who
: take a great amount of pride in flaunting their radical Marxist
: sensibilities through bashing the United States at every turn. This group
: was hard at it even before the rise of Marxism and socialism. Your only
: saving grace is your futile banality -- shackled to a third-rate ideology
: that cannot possibly explain the paradoxes of human behavior and cruelty
: in an adequate manner. Fortunately, we confine your soulmates to the
: college campus and the House Republican Caucus here in the Great Satan. I
: don't expect that will change because the majority of Americans sense,
: quite rightly, that the Marxist obsession with "homo economicus" doesn't
: even come close to capturing the sum total of human existence. You, madam,
: are a dinosaur.

: You two may continue ranting and raving about American perfidy in our
: actions in Bosnia. But the free ride is over. You can expect to be
: challenged at every turn from now on by me or someone else on the list who
: understands that the truth of American involvement is much more complex
: than either of your hatreds for my nation will allow you to admit.

: Sam Stowe

Fascism's support could have been various, the outcome was the same
in each case.

Interesting quote from HVG I've read on the train this
morning: "A nem feltetlenul peldamutato demokraciajukrol
hires azsiai "kis tigrisek" talan azt latszanak igazolni,
hogy a demokratikus politikai berendezkedes nem elofeltetele,
sot akadalya a gazdasagi felemelkedesnek. "
(Jeffrey Sachs, Harvard economist)  - a kesoi kapitalizmus-
ban, tennem en hozza.

Translation: The "little Asian tigers" are not reknown for
their examplary democracies, and they seem to demonstrate,
thet the democratic structure is not a pre-condition, but
a barrier to economic progress.)
I add: in the later stage of capitalism.  Interesting,
now democracy is hindering capitalism, but the main
necessary ingredient for a well-functioning socialism...


>
> >Fascism is a totalitarian last resort to save
> >a capitalist system, when it is otherwise not possible
> >with other, usually democratic-type
> >structures (e.g.Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece, Chile etc).
>
> 
>
> There is a difference between National Socialism and Fascism. In any case
> neither of them has much to do with "saving capitalism." Hard working
> historians of Nazism, for example, proved that all classes
> voted for Hitler in more or less equal proportion. Very few top
> capitalists, or rather businessmen, supported the nazis financially or
> otherwise. In Italy Mussolini was very popular until he started his foreign
> adventures. In Spain few people clamoured for capitalism. Franco's
> military-clerical alliance relied on the peasant support and foreging aid
> to restore the old power-structure. Today not even Marxist maintain the old
> dogma about the finance-capitalist and lower-middle class nature of
> "fascism".
>
> Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
> 

Dear Colleagues,

Now that we have the full text of the Slovak "language law", it is essential
that we intensify our letter campaign. (If you need E-mail or fax numbers for
your local representatives or newspapers, please ask me for them.)

In your letters you could make the following specific points:

* The language laws can best be explained to third parties by saying, that
they are like if the citizens of Geneve were fined if they did not speak
German, or the people of Brussels or Montreal were penalized for not speaking
Dutch or English. Comparisons to the presently proposed and debated American
language laws do not clarify the nature of these laws.

* It is important to point out in our letters, that the recently adopted
language law is in DIRECT CONFLICT with the Slovak Constitution's 34/2/b
paragraph, which GUARANTEES the right of the minorities to use their
languages in all official and public communications.

* Particularly when writing to European politicians and newspapers, we should
emphasize that the source of tensions in the region is not Hungary, but the
government sponsored deteriorating state of human and cultural group rights
in Slovakia and Romania.

* Neither the former prime minister Jozef Moravcik, nor Jan Charnogursky
voted for this law.

* The language law infringes on the rights of the Slovak population also,
because if a language error or foreign word appears in a Slovak publication,
that publication can be fined $7500. (In case of TV/radio the fine is
$15,000.) As the penalty is payable to the "Pro Slovakia" organization, there
are also potentials for exploiting this law for political  or personal
purposes (such as obtaining campaign funds for nationalist groups or
penalizing progressive ones).

* It is now clear that the laws and regulations enacted in Slovakia and
Romania are coordinated and serve to divert public attention from the
economic problems.

In writing our letters, we should particularly keep in mind Max van der
Stoel, the High Commissioner of Minorities in Europe. (I ask anyone who has
his E-mail, to send it to me.) We should also realize, that our politicians
are not familiar with these language laws. Andy Vadasz reported, that when he
talked with his Senator, it was the VERY FIRST TIME, the Senator heard about
this. That shows, that our campaign must intensify, that you too should write
or should write again(!) and that our letters must give some background
information also.

I would like to thank the Hungarian Communion of Friends (Magyar Barati
Kozosseg), which is also initiating a fax campaign.

If you or your friends/relatives would also like to take part in the work of
the
Hungarian Lobby, please send me their E-mail addresses. Starting next
year, we will have a separate listing, which will cover HL business only. All
who sign up by the end of the year, will automatically be included. After the
first of January, new participants can sign up by sending an E-mail to:
  and writing in the body test: subscribe HL.
The HL list will publish the letters ONLY OF ITS MEMBERS and will concentrate
on lobbying actions and strategies, not on debates.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

PS: If you know of a small apartment for rent (between January 21 and
February 3) in Budapest, please let me know.

Your line of anti-American bullshit's no more convincing than the one I
was originally responding to. You don't have the first clue about why
America is getting into Bosnia.You could, for instance, explain how
intervention in Bosnia is going to help anyone get re-elected when 6 out
of 10 Americans oppose the Bosnia mission.

 What puzzles me is your obvious enthusiasm for parading your ignorance in
front of a worldwide audience. If I could offer you some advice, it would
be Abraham Lincoln's recommendation that it's better to keep one's mouth
shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

G'day, mate.

Sam Stowe

In the Christmas issue of the New York Review of Books, dated December
21, Istvan Deak has a fascinating review of

        Budapest and New York: Studies in Metropolitan
        Transformation, 1870-1930
        edited by Thomas Bender and Carl E. Schorske
        Russel Sage Foundation, 400pp., $39.95

The book has a wealth of information on the development of both cities,
including the political transformations after the First World War.

CSABA K. ZOLTANI

In article >, Agnes Gruz
> wrote:

> Tudna valaki segiteni egy forditasi kerdesben? A "choke" magyar
> megfelelojet keresem. (A kovetkezo osszefuggesben: az a valami, ami
> inditaskor tobb levegot ad a motornak)
>
> Ha valaki tud segiteni, kerem, a cimemre kuldje a valaszt. Nagyon koszonom
> elore is.
>

SZIVATO.

> Agnes
> 

Udvozlettel

Peter Ulbrich

In article >,  (Arpad Jaromy) says:
>
>Keresem Europa Kiado cimet (Konyv kiado), regi cime: Vorosmarty ter 1,
>1051 Budapest.
>Akarmilyen informaciot rola nagyon koszonom!

He's in Cuba with Salman Rushdie.

Sorry, I couldn't answer Andras's letter yesterday because at last my basset
hound bitch decided that it was time to whelp: eight puppies. Four boys, four
girls, all doing fine.

First of all, although I usually agree with Greg's astute observations, this
time I think that he is wrong. The argument between Andras and myself (and
others) is not based on different sensibilities. I am sure that my
sensibilities when it comes to Nazi Germany and the holocaust are exactly the
same as Andras's. The difference is that unfortunately Andras treats
historical events completely divorced from time and space and therefore his
analyses don't hold up. Moreover, we don't agree on something very
fundamental to democratic thinking: equality before the law. Bardossy,
Gombos, Teleki, whoever, cannot be treated differently from the rest of
society: same crime, same punishment.

Andras:

>a few lean years during the war would have served the country better in
>the long run, wouldn't you agree?

Yes, it would have but I am not sure whether there ever was such option given
the strength of the right in Hungary.

>It's unclear what the price would have been. As it was, the price was quite
>terrible. In life: hundreds of thousands were killed. In territory: Hungary
>lost all chances for regaining any former parts. In property: the country
was
>devastated. In politics: Hungary lost all independence to the Soviets for
40+
>years.

Starting at the end. Most likely the Soviet domination would have come in any
case, even if Hungary stood up to the Germans. The Poles did, and it didn't
matter. Yes, it is possible that if Hungary endured four or five years of
German occupation, Hungary might have received some contested territories in
exchange, vis a vis Slovakia and Romania, especially if these two countries
sided with the Germans. But in exchange for border revisions Hungary would
have lost, let's say, 200,000 more lives.

In any case, this discussion is becoming totally theoretical because, in
reality, I don't think that the option Andras advocates was ever a
possibility. The only option for the Hungarian government was the
establishment of a government-in-exile (a la the Poles or the Czechs), let
the Germans set up a puppet government and hope for the best. Such a plan was
considered in 1940-1941, but unfortunately abandoned.

And now let's return to Bardossy because the discussion went far beyond him.
Bardossy is not exactly a favorite of mine. Most likely Istvan Barcza was
right that he was a man of nervous disposition and extreme reactions. As
opposed to Kallay, he believed that Germany would win the war. He believed in
fighting Hungary's extreme right by taking the wind of their sail. He was
wrong in both. But, returning to the original discussion, I don't think that
he should have received the death sentence for crimes he most likely didn't
commit.

Eva Balogh