I think "rare" would be a better term.

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Fri, 14 Oct 1994  wrote:

> C.K. Zoltani writes:
>
> > ...[in the USA] judicial murder of
> > the opposition is unknown.
>
> Sacco & Vanzetti, perhaps?
>
> --Greg
>

I think there's a bit of semantic confusion here.  Perhaps C.K.
Zoltani meant *organized political opposition,* i.e., political party
opposition.  Sacco & Vanzetti were executed, as I understand it, partly
because they were Italian Anarchists and both groups were anathama to
our WASPy forefathers, but so far as I know, they weren't executed be-
cause they were leading political parties in opposition to the Republicans
or Democrats.  They were surely, as was Joe Hill, executed in part because
they represented a threat to the traditional order and in contravention of
the liberties provided in our federal Constitution, however--and they're
just as dead.

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Fri, 14 Oct 1994  wrote:

> C.K. Zoltani writes:
>
> > Neither the executed Soviet spies, the Rosenbergs, nor Sacco and
> > Vanzetti, were victims of "judicial murder of the opposition" as was
> > practiced in Kadar's Hungary after the 1956 Hungary's Fight for
> > Freedom.
>
> I can accept that, but it's not hard to find responsible people who
> will tell you that there have been cases where a defendant's political
> beliefs were the main cause of prosecution, including some capital
> cases resulting in execution.  So we still have cases of "judicial
> murder", even if "opposition" has to be taken a little more loosely.
>
> Joe Hill just came to mind, too.
>
> --Greg
>

Since I see Marc's question about the statue and the Stones again, let me
reply even though it's got a low "hungarian content" quotient:

The story, like most urban legends, is garbled.  On a bluff overlooking
the Vltava river was erected, at God knows what cost and in such monumental
size that it required injecting concrete into most of the hillside to
support it, an enormous statue in honor of Stalin (not Lenin).  It was one
of those group things, with figures lined up behind the great genius leader
of mankind, on one side of the line were figures representing fraternal
Soviet people, on the other side grateful Czechs, with the Leader at the
front end.  All of them were semi-relief figures, to emphasize the monolithic
unity of all peoples of the socialist camp, especially behind their camp
commandant.  It was finally dismantled by explosion (unlike the concrete
pre-fab apartments, it was so well-built that destroying it was not easy).
The dismantling didn't occur until the early sixties, since the Prague
leadership (using the Hungarian revolution as their best excuse) had gone
very slowly on the de-Stalinization campaigns being urged from the Kremlin.
The night before it was to be blown up, a graffito appeared on it saying
"Josefe! Bacha! Jdou na tobe!" which can be rendered (without the telegraphic
brevity of the Czech) as "Joe!  Look out! They're coming for you!".

Rubble from the statue paved several kilometers of Prague streets in the
newer sections of town.

Since that day, the empty space on the bluff overlooking the city is still
referred to by most Praguers as "Stalin's statue" and Vladimir Macura has
a wonderful feuilliton about it.

Now, in the first lovely summer of post communist Czechoslovakia, the
Rolling Stones put Prague on their European Tour itinerary, and as publicity
for that concert (August 1990, if memory serves) the spot where Stalin once
stood was graced by an enormous replica of the trademark Stones lips and
tongue.  I was there, at the Strahov stadium with more than 100,000 others,
and my verdict is that both the Stones and I are a lot older...

That's my version of it, anyway, and I'd be happy to be corrected if wrong.

And there was, briefly, a mention of Hungary, too!

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

Marc writes:

>     > > ...Yin the USA" judicial murder of
>     > > the opposition is unknown.
>     >
>     > Sacco & Vanzetti, perhaps?

> Add the Rosenbergs to that list...marc

Hold your horses. They were guilty of treason. If you are interested in the
records they are available.

Jeliko

Imi Bokor quotes and writes:
> >Considering the number of years Horthy was in power, and the time
> >Hungary was a place of refuge for the jewish people at the begining of
> the war,

> it is only a very thin veneer of politeness which prevents me from
> calling this an outrageous piece of unadulterated bullshit.

> the only jews allowed to stay in hungary were those who were
> hungarian by citizenship or conquest. the rest were deported.

> d.a.
If I recall correctly the same thing occured in France after it entered the
war. Just read Koestler's biographical book about it. The ones undeportable
were put in concentration camps in France and then turned over to the
Germans. Also to my knowledge the deportations from Hungary took place for
Jews  (prior to the German occupation) who came from the Polish Pale during
some years before the war. Some Jews, who escaped to Hungary from the west,
were allowed to leave for third countries. I personally knew one Jewish
engineer who escaped from Moravia and stayed in Hungary without any problem
until the autumn of 1944 (worked at oil refinery in Szoreg). Expletives are
not substitutes for facts.

Jeliko.

Hugh Agnew writes:
> Now, in the first lovely summer of post communist Czechoslovakia, the
> Rolling Stones put Prague on their European Tour itinerary, and as
publicity
> for that concert (August 1990, if memory serves) the spot where Stalin once
> stood was graced by an enormous replica of the trademark Stones lips and
                                                                  ^^^^^
> tongue.  I was there, at the Strahov stadium with more than 100,000 others,
^^^^^^^^^
> and my verdict is that both the Stones and I are a lot older...

> That's my version of it, anyway, and I'd be happy to be corrected if wrong.

> And there was, briefly, a mention of Hungary, too!
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thank you, the lipservice was presumed as tounge in cheek.

Regards,Jeliko

In the October 4 issue of *168 ora* (pp. 6-8) there is a report by Attila
Buja1k on "The Speech" (A besze1d); that is, Horn's speech to parliament.
Unfortunately, from Buja1k's piece it is hard to learn much about what Horn
actually said or gauge the reaction of the population. One has to read
between the lines, but my general impression was that the speech was too long
and rather boring. It was 36 pages long and it was read aloud by Horn while
most people in the House was falling asleep. The journalist compares the
speech unfavorably with Boross's quick, biting, improvised speeches. Boross,
by the way, found his opponent's speech "aimless and rambling--someone wrote
it and somebodies rewrote it a few times afterward." One can also gather from
the piece that Horn doesn't have a sense of humor, and when Torgya1n
inquired, "I would be very curious, Mr. Prime Minister, how did you people
get from Marx to Fotex?" Horn tried to answer it seriously. Many people felt
that Iva1n Peto3 was the one who delivered a really good speech. Next day,
Vita1nyi openly criticized Horn's address in Nap TV. An SZDSZ member of
parliament remarked after the MPs left the House, "What do you expect. Horn
is like that. Already between the two rounds we predicted that with him at
the helm it won't work."

And this leads me to Horn's speaking style. Readers of this list may recall
that I translated fairly long passages from an interview with him (also
published in *168 ora*) about a month ago. Gabor Fencsik subsequently called
my attention to an article by Ottilia Solt about Gyula Horn's speaking style.
According to Solt, Horn has relatively little experience in public speaking
and his interviews are studded with fillers, like "excuse me," "look here,"
"forgive me." These fillers may account for a style which at the time I
characterized as "extremely self-confident, perhaps even arrogant." Horn may
be like Gorbachev, who, in spite of his reformist impulses, was deeply imbued
with party jargon, was long-winded, as most apparatchiks were/are, and lacked
spontaneity. With this observation in mind, it is fascinating to read the
following Horn interview.

The interview entitled "One can't miss this!" (*168 ora,* September 6, 1994,
pp. 10-11) was conducted on TV4 (Pallas Lodge).

(1) Discussing the appointment of the media presidents, Horn claimed that he
had discussed the matter with Iva1n Peto3. This was news to the journalist
who then inquired: "So, the it was two of you . . ." Horn interrupted:
"Excuse me. [In the original: Elne1ze1st ke1rek.] The voters voted for me in
order to make our promises a reality.

(2) Still discussing the media, Horn claims that the situation was so bad at
the TV and Radio that one couldn't wait until September. The journalist
ventures to say that it wouldn't have remained the same even without the
abrupt change of personnel. Horn: "No, forgive me, but that is unimaginable."
[In the original: Nem, ne haragudjon, ez elke1pzelhetetlen.]

(3) In discussing the possibility of a vote of no confidence of the
government before its term is over. Horn: "Look here, I don't believe, that
this government will be voted out of office." [In the original: Ne1zze, e1n
nem hiszem, hogy ez a korma1ny meg fog bukni.]

Indeed, on the basis of this observation one must revise one's opinion of
Horn's style--it is not arrogant or self-confident. Rather, it is the style
of a man inexperienced in public speeking whose awkward verbal mannerisms
give the impression of arrogance and self-confidence.

Eva Balogh

I read a very interesting interview with Ka1roly Gro1sz, the last secretary
of the MSZMP, wich appeared in two segments in *168 ora* (September 27 and
October 5, 1994). I would like to quote the last few sentences:

"In my opinion, in Hungary, the change of regime occurred not as the result
of internal causes, but rather as a result of events taking place in Europe.
If this is so, then the claim that the regime collapsed because of stagnation
of living standards or public antipathy toward the leadership is unfounded. I
don't want to underrate these and other causes, but, in reality, the collapse
of the camp as a whole was largely responsible for the political change in
the individual countries, including Hungary. The Soviet leadership at the
time was unable to handle the problem. That's was all."

First and foremost, do you agree with Gro1sz? Second, if Gro1sz is right, can
one speak of a "revolution" from above? Third, if there was such a thing how
does that fact affect today's political situation in Hungary?

Eva Balogh

Forwarded message:
>From   Sat Oct 15 16:01:13 1994
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 14:48:50 -0500
From:  (Susan Hadden)
Subject: new listserve
To: 
Reply-To: 
Message-Id: >
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Comments: Environmental Law Professors

I found this elsewhere and thought it might be of interest to envlawprofs.

ENVCEE-L on      Environment in Central and Eastern Europe

   The ENVCEE-L was formed as an open, unmoderated discussion list by
   the Regional Environmental Center for Central and Eastern Europe
   (REC) in order to discuss Environmental Issues in the following
   countries: Albania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary,
   Poland, Romania, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, and the Former Yugoslav
   Republic of Macedonia.

   The main mission of this list is to promote cooperation among diverse
   environmental groups and interests in Central and Eastern Europe;  to
   act as a catalyst for developing solutions to environmental problems
   in this region;  and to promote the development of a civic society.

   To subscribe to ENVCEE-L, send the following command to
    in the BODY of e-mail:

   SUBSCRIBE ENVCEE-L yourfirstname yourlastname

   Archives of ENVCEE-L mail items are kept in monthly files.  You may
   obtain a list of the available files in the archives by sending the
   command

   INDEX

   in the BODY of e-mail to .

   Plese note that this is not the L-Soft revised LISTSERV.  Send a
   message with a BODY containing the word HELP in order to get more
   information about the listserver.

   Owner: Rossen Roussev >

Susan G. Hadden
LBJ School of Public Affairs
The University of Texas
Austin, Texas 78713

Can someone help me with some basic questions about the
military service in the Monarchy around 1870?
     I think I read somewhere that the military service in that
time was 10 years.  Recently I received an old document called
"Final Release Certificate" (Ve1gelbocsa1jto1 leve1l) showing that
in 1904, at the age of 47, my great-grandfather was released from
the reserves. It also indicates that he served a total of 12 years
of duty in a certain cavalry regiment.
     This is a puzzle to me. If they drafted all young men for that
long, the size of the army would have been incredible large.
Obviously only a small percentage of the population was enlisted.
But how they decided who should go? Did people volunteer? Did they
pay the servicemen well? It seems strange to me, that some people
had to give up so much of his life to the army.  What did they do?
How long does it take to learn to ride and care for a horse?  There
was no war in Europe at that time.
Thanks in advance,
     Barni Bozoki

So far as I am aware (and I'm a native of Massachusetts) no one has
ever connected the Sacco & Vanzetti trial to *treason*.  They were tried for
murder and convicted despite some evidence that the judge involved was biased
against Italians in general and anarchists in particular.  I have always
felt the trial was of dubious fairness and replete with prejudice.
        Someone else will have to discuss the Rosenberg trial since Stalin
*did* have atomic spies (such as Klaus Fuchs).  Will someone familiar with
that trial let me know if it was fair and the accused guilty.  It was a time
of great hysteria only Communists and suspected Communists were the
object of the hysteria while during the Sacco and Vanzetti trial it was
foreign anarchists who seemed to frighten people.



--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Sat, 15 Oct 1994, JELIKO wrote:

> Marc writes:
>
> >     > > ...Yin the USA" judicial murder of
> >     > > the opposition is unknown.
> >     >
> >     > Sacco & Vanzetti, perhaps?
>
> > Add the Rosenbergs to that list...marc
>
> Hold your horses. They were guilty of treason. If you are interested in the
> records they are available.
>
> Jeliko
>