I can't help Barna Bozoki directly with his question about Habsburg
military service terms and conditions, but wouldn't some of that information
be covered in Istvan Deak's book about the Habsburg officer corps?  I can't
remember the exact title, but it should be easy enough to find, it was a
fairly recent publication...

Hope this helps,

Hugh Agnew

While I agree with E1va Balogh's list of shameful periods, I do think that
Gosztonyi is manipulating the figures, not so much by outright falsification
as by neglecting to present the number of Sza1lasi's victims and by
relegating the major category of white terror victims to a footnote. Even
with the footnotes, his figures challenge the hitherto accepted view that
the red terror (Szamuely and his "Lenin boys") actually claimed only half as
many victims as the subsequent white terror. (Borsa1nyi talks about 1,200
victims of white terror in the high school history textbook that he wrote in
1991.) But this is a minor quibble: the major problem is giving a two-digit
number of Sza1lasi's victims instead of the six figures it really was. As if
arrow cross "atrocities" were not actively encouraged and supported by the
Sza1lasi government! Of course, pointing to an even larger butcher does not
absolve Ra1kosi or Ka1da1r of moral responsibility for their own deeds, but
omitting this figure is deeply distorting the whole picture, inasmuch as
this brief period saw the government-aided and -abetted murder of
considerably more Hungarian citizens than the rest put together.

On another note, I can't resist E1va's questions about Gro1sz's opinion: it
is largely true that "the change of regime occurred not as the result of
internal causes, but rather as a result of events taking place in Europe."
Largely, but not entirely: Hungary's opening the borders played a
significant role, and so did the lack of "resolve" on the part of the East
German leadership. (The leadership in China was ready to perpetuate its rule
with a nice little massacre, hey, what's a few kids anyway...)  The rotting
away of Soviet power structure was a complex process, and of course it went
way beyond Hungary. To some extent Hungary enjoyed the benefit of the
USSR-internal decay, as well as the benefit of Polish, Czechoslovak, and
East German dissatisfaction. However, there was no Western European process,
attitude, or event, that played a significant role, and if Gro1sz means
"Eastern European" by  "European" than Hungary was very much in tune with
these events, and they *were* caused by causes internal to Eastern Europe.

When Gro1sz says "in reality, the collapse of the camp as a whole was
largely responsible for the political change in the individual countries,
including Hungary." again this is largely true, but has a chicken-and-egg
paradox hidden in it: why did the "camp as a whole" collapse? Surely
"stagnation of living standards or public antipathy toward the leadership"
played a significant role, even if these factors were stronger in other
parts of the "camp" as in Hungary, which was, after all, the most cheerful
barrack. And again, when he says "The Soviet leadership at the time was
unable to handle the problem. That's was all." this is also true in the
negative sense that *had* the Soviet leadership been able to "handle the
problem" certainly they would have been able to maintain a stronger grip on
their satellites, and the mild internal ferment in Hungary would have been
insufficient to change things. So *why* could they not handle it? I guess
Gro1sz would say that Gorbachov was an incompetent, and Li Peng was a great
politician which, if you define greatness in politics as the ability to
hold on to power, is certainly true.

"Sza1zezer hazugsa1got hegedu3l a sok ravasz"

Andra1s Kornai

Andras Kornai writes:
> While I agree with E1va Balogh's list of shameful periods, I do think
that
> Gosztonyi is manipulating the figures, not so much by outright
falsification
> as by neglecting to present the number of Sza1lasi's victims and by
> relegating the major category of white terror victims to a footnote. Even
> with the footnotes, his figures challenge the hitherto accepted view that
> the red terror (Szamuely and his "Lenin boys") actually claimed only half
as
> many victims as the subsequent white terror. (Borsa1nyi talks about 1,200
> victims of white terror in the high school history textbook that he wrote
in
> 1991.) But this is a minor quibble: the major problem is giving a
two-digit
> number of Sza1lasi's victims instead of the six figures it really was. As
if
> arrow cross "atrocities" were not actively encouraged and supported by
the
> Sza1lasi government! Of course, pointing to an even larger butcher does
not
> absolve Ra1kosi or Ka1da1r of moral responsibility for their own deeds,
but
> omitting this figure is deeply distorting the whole picture, inasmuch as
> this brief period saw the government-aided and -abetted murder of
> considerably more Hungarian citizens than the rest put together.

Morrally, one of the differences that bother me is that among all of the
butchers involved only Szallasi got punished, while Rakosi and Kadar faded
away without ever being formally faced by legal challange to their
activities. Some even try to make them out to be "reformed criminals" who
by some percieved action are relieved of the responsibility of murder.

Regards,Jeliko.

In my opinion, the collapse of the communist systems was generic and no
breakaway in one country would have been possible without the rot in all of
them. One of the probable reasons was the advance of communication,
information other than the home generated BS became available and people
started to realize all over that the propaganda is lame, this added to the
generic failure of the Marxist economic methods collpased the fortress of
cards.

Regards,Jeliko.

Glen Camp writes:

>         So far as I am aware (and I'm a native of Massachusetts) no one
has
> ever connected the Sacco & Vanzetti trial to *treason*.  They were tried
for
> murder and convicted despite some evidence that the judge involved was
biased
> against Italians in general and anarchists in particular.  I have always
> felt the trial was of dubious fairness and replete with prejudice.

My comment relating to treason referred to the request for the Rosenberg
addition, not to the Sacco - Vanzetti pair.


>         Someone else will have to discuss the Rosenberg trial since
Stalin
> *did* have atomic spies (such as Klaus Fuchs).  Will someone familiar
with
> that trial let me know if it was fair and the accused guilty.  It was a
time
> of great hysteria only Communists and suspected Communists were the
> object of the hysteria while during the Sacco and Vanzetti trial it was
> foreign anarchists who seemed to frighten people.

Stalin had several other spies besides Klaus Fuchs, who purloined "atomic
secrets". It is fascinating to see what and how much the Russians copied
from US nuclear weapons technology.

Some years ago there was an attempt to whitewash the Rosenbergs, if I
recollect correctly the author started to review the information available
with the intent that he will prove the Rosenberg's innocence, by the time
he finished the research, the author came to the conclusion that they were
guilty. I do not remember author or title (probably early Altzheimers is
setting in), but it should be available to those interested in looking up
info in library. Anything I have read about the trial indicates that it was
not a witch hunt, but a -for the time period - reasonable judicial process.

Regards,Jeliko.

Originally-To: 

Hungarian TV miniseries info
Please pardon my intrusion.  I am seeking information
on the television miniseries THE GLOBE which aired on
Hungarian television in 1993.  The film was about students
at a language school and starred British actor
Clive Wood, of whom I am a fan.
I cannot speak Hungarian and felt a little lost trying
to locate information through the gopher service.
Could you please pass this request for information along
to someone who might be able to help me?  My goal is
to obtain a copy of THE GLOBE for my personal viewing,
but any information to that end will be most appreciated.
I can be reached at   Thank you.
Debbie Parsons

>"H. MARC" > writes on 14 Oct 1994:
>
>
>>    > > ...Yin the USA" judicial murder of
>>    > > the opposition is unknown.
>>    >
>>    > Sacco & Vanzetti, perhaps?
>
>>Add the Rosenbergs to that list...marc
>
>
>Absolutely wrong!
>
>Sacco and Vanzetti were convicted of the murders of F.A. Braintree,
>paymaster of a shoe factory and Alessandro Berardelli, the security
>guard accompanying Mr. Parmenter, in order to rob the payroll they were
>carrying. Later, in 1925, Celestino Madeiros, then sitting on death row
>confessed that he had participated in the crime with the Morelli gang,
>but the state Supreme Court refused to upset the verdict.
>
>Neither the executed Soviet spies, the Rosenbergs, nor Sacco and
>Vanzetti, were victims of "judicial murder of the oppopsition" as was
>practiced in Kadar's Hungary after the 1956 Hungary's Fight for Freedom.
>

Political murder is committed in various forms in various frequencies in
different parts of the world in different historical periods.  In a way,
all murder is political, depending on how broadly one wishes to construe
the 'political'. This is why, whom some Irish catholics consider patriotic
freedom fighters, are inprisoned in the British Isles as terrorists.  In
the United States, social tensions are lower then in other parts of the
worl due in a large measure to the  material prosperity prevailing there
(the sources of which are still a mater of theoretical debate, both from
the point of view of ethical philosophy and political economy).   This
factor alone can account for the fact that state sponsored murder is less
evident in American history.  In addition, such drastic measures were
rarely necessary while 'the frontier' was available for the relief of
political tension.  When state murder  does occur, as in all other matters
of propaganda, American practicioners demonstrate a superior level of
persuasive skill.  In practicing state sponsored political murder which is
public (i.e. not committed by secret services, not just 'disappearances'),
the powers always attempt to make their actions appear just and their
victims appear guilty of some crime.  In America, (and IMHO, this is what
makes constitutional democracy prefferable to other forms of governance)
political crimes as such, are not in the universe of discourse.  Enemies of
the state need rarely to be murdered, as ostracism such as the black
listings of the McCarthy era suffice; but rarely, individuals become
dangerous enough to the state so that they must be put away.  In such a
case, the victim is framed for an ordinary capital offense.  The case of
labour organizer Joe Hill is probably the best and clearest example.  Other
cases are sufficiently muddy, so that a 'reasonable' doubt exists.  The
U.S. government, however, allows its clients, such as the El Salvadoran and
Guatemalan Juntas, to practice political murder with inpunity.

All in all, comparing one system's atrocities to another's is an impossible
task, much like counting apples and oranges.  For example, though the names
and particulars escape me at the moment, there have been many murders in
the U.S. of labour leaders and 'whistle blowers' by agents of large
corporations which are buried in the general high violent crime statistics
in the US.  If one were paranoid enough to believe in conspiracy theories,
one might maintain that the high level of crime is maintained for this very
reason.

Tibor Benke,

Zsigmond Makra wrote:

>        Two of the commanders responsible for the "Cold Days" in Ujvidek
>(Novi Sad) were sentenced to death by Horthy's court martial.

Indeed.  Now, what about those commanders who were responsible for the death
of labour-service draftees on the Eastern Front ?  What about those
who set up the whole system of 'labour service' that looked like a small-
time experiment in solving the 'problems' with Jews and politically undesirable
elements ?

>The 'padded
>coats' were honoured with the medal "For the socialist Homeland" - for
>killing at least some hundred civilians all over the country.

Just help my recollections, please, about the official attitude under the
consolidated Horthy regime towards those running the white terror after
the defeat of the Council Republic in 1919.  Any difference there ?

George Antony

This is my favorite topic since i received these coupons a few months ago.
They are now worth 36% of their original value. Not that I haven't made
attempt to exchange them, but in the process have run into several scams. Now
I will just hold and would like to join in  a Class Action suit against the
Hungarian government, just on the grounds of principle. If you promise to
compensate,then compensate and get on with life. THIS IS NOT COMPENSATION!!!

Subject: Re: Judicial Murder
From: JELIKO, 
Date: 15 Oct 1994 17:25:37 GMT
In article > JELIKO, 
writes:
>Marc writes:

>> > > ...Yin the USA" judicial murder of
>> > > the opposition is unknown.
>>
>> > Sacco & Vanzetti, perhaps?

>> Add the Rosenbergs to that list...marc

>Hold your horses. They were guilty of treason. If you are interested in
the
>records they are available.

>Jeliko


what is treason if not a political act, even if the motivation is
pecunary?

d.a.

In article > JELIKO, 
writes:

>If I recall correctly the same thing occured in France after it entered
the
>war. Just read Koestler's biographical book about it. The ones
undeportable
>were put in concentration camps in France and then turned over to the
>Germans. Also to my knowledge the deportations from Hungary took place
for
>Jews  (prior to the German occupation) who came from the Polish Pale
during
>some years before the war. Some Jews, who escaped to Hungary from the
west,
>were allowed to leave for third countries. I personally knew one Jewish
>engineer who escaped from Moravia and stayed in Hungary without any
problem
>until the autumn of 1944 (worked at oil refinery in Szoreg). Expletives
are
>not substitutes for facts.
>
>Jeliko.

in fact several thousand jewish refugees were deported to slovakia, whence
they had come. most jewish refugees from the pale attempted to flee via
ussr or rumania to the black sea and then by ship elsewhere.

the fact that france's war-time record is ambivalent does not alter the
fact that the claims made on behalf of hungary as a "haven for jews" is
fatuous nonsense --- i hope i have spared your linguistic sensitivities
by referring to a "spade" as a "manually operated and mechanically driven
devise for the extraction of sufficiently loosesolid material".

I would like to point out that there were numerous, not just one, german
jews who managed to survive in germany for the entire war. does that mean
that germany was a haven for jews during world war ii?

i agree that expletives are not the best form of address. they are totally
inadequate to the task of conveying the contempt deserved by such
nonsense
as has been published on behalf of hunagry' glorious deeds in the 30's
and 40's in this group.

d.a.