I think the result was the same and the hurt similar. As E. Balogh has stated t
here was no mention of Jews specifically in the early Hungarian numerus clausus
 laws. I am by no means defending these laws and I think my remarks are miscons
trued if it is suggested that I am. All I was commenting on is that if we denig
rate another country in another historical context for such laws we should look
 closely at our own practices first. I trust you are not suggesting that the in
formal practices of some institutions is acceptable as long as it is not writte
n and it is on a "nod, nod, wink, wink" basis. I think that discrimination is w
rong!

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Sam Stowe[SMTP:]
Sent:  Thursday, 20 March 1997 23:10
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: numerus clausus in the U.S.

In article >, Zimanyi
Magdolna > writes:

>Subject:       numerus clausus in the U.S.
>From:  Zimanyi Magdolna >
>Date:  Wed, 19 Mar 1997 23:57:10 +0100
>
>There was some debate a few days ago about the numerus clausus in the
>U.S. in the thirties. Here is a contribution to this topic.
>
>An excerpt from the book
>
>"What Do You Care What Other People Think?"
>Further Adventures of a Curious Character
>Richard P. Feynman
>as told to Ralph Leighton,
>W.W. Norton&Company
>New York, London, 1988
>
> Richard P. Feynman (1918-1988) was a Nobel prize winner in physics.
>The book contains autobiographical stories from the life of Feynman
>told in first person singular.
>
> On pages 30-33. one can read as follows:
>
> "I was the best in sicence, the best in Mathematics, the best in
>physics, and the best in chemistry [at school]. [...]
>
> My mother reassured Dr. Augsberry [math teacher of R. Feynman]:  'We
>are saving money as best we can, and we're trying to send him to
>Columbia or MIT.' [...]
>
>After that summer I went away to college at MIT. (I couldn't go to
>Columbia because of the Jewish quota. *)"
>
>There is a footnote in the book to explain what the quota system was:
>
> "Note for foreign readers: the quota system was a discriminatory
>practice of limiting the number of places in a university available to
>students of Jewish background."
>
>As Feynman was born in 1918 all this happened about 1936-38.
>
>I can recommend to everybody to read the book. Feynman was an
>extraordinary personality and the book is a fascinating reading.
>
> Best regards
>
> Magdolna Zimanyi
> KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-395-9242
> and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-395-9151
> Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
> H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Feynman's worth reading because he was the rare scientific genius who could
lucidly impart not only the highly technical details of his discoveries, but
also the simple joy of exploration which
fueled his curiosity. Nevertheless, you've taken this quote well out of its
historical context in what appears to be an attempt to implicitly defend the
indefensible. I think Eva Balogh has already
addressed this, but it won't hurt to point it out again -- any restriction of
the numbers of Jews in Ivy League universities was an ad hoc and informal
process rather than enshrined in state and
federal law. The Hungarian situation during this time was far more serious --
numerus clausus was the law of the land and it was systematically enforced by
the government.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Do you suppose Columbia, et. al., were just as scrupulous about not
admitting large numbers of students of Irish background, Roman Catholics,
Southerners, blacks and women during the same
era? It sure wouldn't surprise me.
2 851867082 0 0 alt.taiwan.republic:
13 858663500 1 0 alt.torture:
16595,16611,16629,16637,16641-16642,16647,16650,16659,16671,16677,16696,16705,1
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826,16833-16834,16853,16864,16867,16897,16917,16919,16964,17013,17028,17104,172
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2 852708026 0 0 alt.ufo.reports:
1 851081615 0 0 alt.zen:
4 857029745 0 0 japan.binaries.pictures.lolita: 1279
3 851866973 1 0 muc.bondage:
23 858659326 6 0 rec.games.trading-cards.magic.misc:
109100,109226,109286,109324,109327,109474-109475,109477,109480,109489,109494-10
9495,109542,109573,109634,109659,109713,109834,109836,109904,109913,110072,1101
31,110233,110310,110331-110332,110338,110344,110372-110373,110378,110429,110460
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17 858428195 8 0 rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules:
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432,92437,92439,92442-92443,92540,92548,92688,92713,92722,92797,92817,92847,928
62,92874,92887,92892,92910,92960,92963,92967,93006,93008,93013,93021BY,e

"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.

The hard data is much appreciated. It makes discussion much easier and more wor
thwhile. I wonder how many people are aware of such comparative figures in Aust
ralia. Here our political masters are showing great concern at the high cost of
 health care to the state. Their answer is to force people to go for private in
surance, initially for high income earners. The other push is to rationalise (c
lose) hospitals and privatise those that remain open into the hands of trans na
tional companies. Another push is to bring in managed care and much greater rel
iance on day surgery with home nursing being provided but not budgeted for. The
 eyes of some of our political masters is on what was imposed in New Zealand wh
ere the state has withdrawn from most service provider areas.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Stephen L. Szabolcsy[SMTP:]
Sent:  Friday, 21 March 1997 1:57
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Health care and GDP

   Dear Readers:

   There is a bar chart, showing health spending as % of GDP of various
countries in 1995, in the latest issue of The Economist. Next to the bars,
health spending per head are also shown in figures. It looks like this:

                               %of GDP                     US$/head
                    0        5        10        15
United States       XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX           3,830
France              XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                    2,620
Germany             XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                     2,840
Austria             XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                     2,780
Switzerland         XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                     4,150
Canada              XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                      1,800
Netherlands         XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                       2,250
Australia           XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                       1,620
Belgium             XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                       2,120
Sweden              XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                        2,010
Italy               XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                        1,460
Spain               XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                        1,080
Portugal            XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                          760
Japan               XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                         2,940
Britain             XXXXXXXXXXXXXX                          1,300
Denmark             XXXXXXXXXXXXX                           2,150
Greece              XXXXXXXXXXXX                              570

   I think, these statistics show that a Canadian or an Australian would
consider the British health care system poor, compared to their own, the
Swiss overly generous, but affordable, while the American one obviously too
costly.
Hungary would be best off following the Canadian or Australian low cost systems
.
                                       Istvan L. Szabolcsy

In article >, Richard Corson
> writes:

>I am looking for a US book dealer who would be likely

While I can't point you in the direction of a US book dealer
who might have this book, I like to give you information that
will help you to secure it:

Eclipse of the Crescent Moon
  Title of the original: Egri Csillagok (1909)
English translation George F. Cushing, 1991
ISBN 963 13 3372 8

Published by Corvina Books, Budapest
Vo:ro:smarty ter 1, Hungary 1051
 .....................................................................

Good luck,
Marina

At 11:47 AM 3/21/97 GMT, Marina wrote:

>While I can't point you in the direction of a US book dealer
>who might have this book, I like to give you information that
>will help you to secure it:
>
>Eclipse of the Crescent Moon
>  Title of the original: Egri Csillagok (1909)
>English translation George F. Cushing, 1991
>ISBN 963 13 3372 8
>
>Published by Corvina Books, Budapest
>Vo:ro:smarty ter 1, Hungary 1051


Marina and everybody else,

        Please try out a fantastic Internet site: www.amazon.com. A virtual
bookstore with one million titles and an excellent search program. On
recommendation of friends I ordered a couple books from them and the service
is wonderul.
        I would certainly try to find it there first. ESB

Sorry folks,I do not want to interrupt your every day chat,but I could not
stand idle and see how you argue about the Canadian Health Care and do not even
know how it works in Ontario.Eva Balogh wrote to Istvan Szabolcsy:
"Istvan,it is an impossibility that you can run a national health care
system on $32.00/person/month".Eva is right,there is more to it than that.
Well,Istvan is self-employed in BC.this is why he has to pay $32.00/month in BC
.

In Ontario he would not have to pay anything.N O T H I N G !

In Ontario anybody who are employed, or a pensioner, or on welfare,they do not
have to pay anything into the OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan).Or if some-
one is self-employed they do not pay for the first $200.000 gross income

OHIP is paid by the CORPORATIONS as follows: The minimum corporation payment
is: 1.101% to 1.950% of the corporation's gross payroll.(Total Ontario
Remuneration)

Up to $200.000 gross income,no payment required by the corporations or
self-employed.
        $200.000  to  $230.000  Rate:  1.101%
        $230.001  to  $260.000  Rate:  1.223%
        $260.000  to  $290.000  Rate:  1.344%
        $290.000  to  $320.000  Rate:  1.465%
        etc...
        Over $400.000 gross remuneration (gross payroll) Rate: 1.950%

Well,this is how the OHIP is paid in Ontario,which is only half (or so) of the
cost of the health care in Ontario,the other half (or so) is paid by the
Federal Government by way of transferpayment. (from our tax dollar)
In Hungary the government should follow this Ontarrian system,especially since
they have given all nationally owned corporations to the westeners for almost
nothing.So let these big Corporations pay their shares just like in Ontario.
Laci Toth

Eva Balogh quoted from my statement which change the meaning completelly
of my posting,however if you read it through you will get the message.

>At 07:06 PM 3/9/97 -0500, Leslie Toth wrote:
>>In Ontario he would not have to pay anything.N O T H I N G !

Eva, I made this statement above because in Ontario OHIP is paid by the
Corporations, we don't pay into it directly.If you read my today's posting
you can see what the Corporations has to pay.

The following statement you made, I agree, we pay higher taxes and receiving
lower salaries.
In our argument we were talking about actual payment into OHIP (like in BC
this $32.00/person/month) and we don't pay this in Ontario.

>        It never ceases to amaze me that educated people can come up with
>such statements that "health care in Canada doesn't cost anything." You may
>not be dishing out the $2,704/year to an insurance company and therefore you
>may think that it is free but indirectly you are paying for it: by paying
>higher taxes, or receiving lower salaries. You are paying relatively as
>much, if not slightly more, than Americans pay.

This statement I agree. Laci Toth

This is of interest only to translators <> English.
-------------------
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Customer Service Manager

I have a few correction to Ferenc Novak's piece on the so-called
numberus clausus in the United States.

>Yes, this is how it works.  My Alma Mater (another Ivy school) also sets
>informal quotas to ensure a "balanced" class, and to preclude any given group
>from being overrepresented.  (Except for children of alumni.)

        I don't know about Ferenc's alma mater but at Yale they don't want
to have "heritage children"--that is the sons and daughters of alumni--to be
overrepresented either. And, by the way, I few considerations I left out
from my earlier piece: they don't want too many students from private
schools either. Also, admission is not depended on financial aid.

>>Columbia
>>considered itself a "national school" and if they let in every bright, even
>>brilliant, Jewish students from Manhattan and the five boroughs into
>>Columbia the school would have stopped being a national school but would
>>have been considered a local Jewish school.
>
>This is not so different from the Numerus Clausus in Hungary a couple of
>generations ago.  The real difference is that the former was practiced openly
>and had the force of law, while the current US practice is informal and
>voluntary.

        I am terribly sorry but I do see a tremendous difference. The
numerus clauses had nationwide applicability which practically meant that
very many talented students simply couldn't attend university. If they were
lucky and their parents could afford it they were sent abroad--this is how
those famous Hungarian scientists we like to boast about ended up in German
universities and eventually in the United States after Hitler came to power.
But a Jewish student from New York had many, many possibilities. He may not
have gotten into Columbia, but surely, as it is obvious from Feyman's case,
he was admitted to another excellent university. Or if his parents were not
well off there was always City College which was the haven of poor New York
Jewish students. It was an excellent school and free. In brief, a Jewish
student in the United States wasn't barred from college because of his
ethnic origin. He may not have gotten into this or that school but he got
into some other. The Hungarian numerus clauses had universal applicability
within the country.
        ESB

>
>Ferenc
>
>

E.Balogh wrote:

>        I am terribly sorry but I do see a tremendous difference. The
>numerus clauses had nationwide applicability which practically meant that
>very many talented students simply couldn't attend university. If they were
>lucky and their parents could afford it they were sent abroad--this is how
>those famous Hungarian scientists we like to boast about ended up in German
>universities and eventually in the United States after Hitler came to power.

I think this picture a la E.Balogh is a little bit oversimplified. As far as
I know the german universities were the best in the world that time (20s-30s)
at least in Physics. One just have to study the history of Quantum Mechanics
to see this. I think this was also a factor. Those jewish student who
were bright enough and whose parents were rich enough migth choose to study in
Germany rather then in Hungary. Beside it is difficult to believe that a
student accepted by the university in Heidelberg or Berlin could not fit
into the quota of the ELTE.

J.Zs

Eva Balogh wrote :
<        I would like to state right here at the beginning (and this is not
<the first time that I am stating it) that I am not in favor of the current
<American health-care system.

<However, trained as an academic, I have a
<compulsion to arrive at the truth.

Late comment, I admit : I am afraid, in academic circles there is
no expectations like arriving at the TRUTH. Natural scientists,
philosophers,...are IMHO much more humble.( Apart of the fact that
much off suffering was caused by those "possessing" the truth ( what
you didn4t say, Eva.)). I am always uneasy when the term truth pops
up...
Regards
Miklos

aheringer wrote:
>
> In article >,
>  says...
> >
> >aheringer > wrote
> >Istvan:
> >> >Biztos, azt akarod hogy, oreg, alacsony, kopasz, kover, magyarok
> legioja
> >> >irkaljon neked leveleket?
> >> >Istvan
> >> >
> >Agnes:
> >> En is alacsony vagyok, oreg es kover (nem kopasz).  Nem akarok
> >> hozzamenni felesegul.  De bar mindenki ugy gondolkodna ahogy Dominus.
>
> >> Sokkal intelligensebben valaszolt, mint ahogy en valaha is meg tudnam
> >> fogalmazni a mondanivalomat - ezert nem is valaszoltam a maga
> >> provokaciojara - Dominus valaszolt helyettem es nagyon halas vagyok
> erte.
> >> Agnes
> >
> >Akkor minden rendbe van mert nekem is tetszettek Dominus levelei.  Talan
> o
> >nem is oreg, alacsony, kopasz, meg kover.  Kulonben is, en nagyon boldog
> >hazas vagyok (a felesegem itt al mogottem es mondta, hogy ezt irjam), es
> >nem tudom megkerni felesegul.  Talan Dominus?
> >Istvan
>
> En sem vagyok venkisasszony....
>
> Agnes
Ez most szivfacsaro vagy happy end? Kezcsokom, Agnes,
tetszett nekem ez a szovaltas.
Miklos

In a message dated 97-03-21 16:35:16 EST,  (E.S. Balogh)
writes:
>I have a few correction to Ferenc Novak's piece on the so-called . . . .  >>

>I am terribly sorry but I do see a tremendous difference. The
>numerus clauses had nationwide applicability which practically meant that
>very many talented students simply couldn't attend university. If they were
>lucky and their parents could afford it they were sent abroad--this is how
>those famous Hungarian scientists we like to boast about ended up in German
>universities and eventually in the United States after Hitler came to power.

I totaly agree with Eva -  Ferenc is comparing apples and oranges. First -
Hungary's
Jewish population was not large enough to create the same concerns that they
may had at Columbia. I believe the intent of the "numerus clausus"  in
Hungary
was clearly to keep "undesirables" out of the institutions of higher
learning.

I have personal knowledge of three such Hungarians - who received their
education in those days in Vienna and in Paris at the Sorbone. The three
gentlemen were
room mates during their school years, none of them came from wealth, in fact
they came from poor families. They worked their way through school. All three
became physians and made a name for themselfs in the US - no thanks to their
place of birth. The irony is that today they are considered  a credit to
their
place of birth - and on a way they are.

So lets not kid ourselfs and call it what it was - discrimination on a large
scale.

Sincerely, Marina

At 03:47 PM 3/21/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>I think this picture a la E.Balogh is a little bit oversimplified. As far as
>I know the german universities were the best in the world that time (20s-30s)
>at least in Physics. One just have to study the history of Quantum Mechanics
>to see this. I think this was also a factor. Those jewish student who
>were bright enough and whose parents were rich enough migth choose to study in
>Germany rather then in Hungary. Beside it is difficult to believe that a
>student accepted by the university in Heidelberg or Berlin could not fit
>into the quota of the ELTE.

        Well, it is rather hard today to decide who went to Germany to study
because of the numerus clausus and who didn't, but here is a 1927
description of the situation from the Magyar Zsido Lexikon. (And I am sorry
but I don't have time this afternoon to translate it verbatim.) After
describing the unconstitutionality of the measure the encyclopedia states: "
A numerus clausus kovetkezteben a zsido ifjusag szazai kenyszerultek
kulfoldre s az elso evekben kulonosen a nemet egyetemekre todultak, de
ujabban Ausztria, Csehorszag, Belgium, Franciaorszag es Svajc egyetemein is
sok a magyar zsido egyetemi hallgato. Segelyezesukre alakult meg a Kozponto
Zsido Diaksegito Bizottsag.... A zsido ifjak egyresze tanulmanyainak
befejezese utan visszatert Magyarorszagra, joval nagyobb azonban azoknak a
szama, akik diplomajuk nosztrifikalasanak nehezsegei, vagy egyeb okok miatt
kulfoldon telepedtek le." [In brief: Hundreds of Hungarian Jewish students
were forced to study initially in Germany but lately in Austria,
Czechoslovakia, Belgium, France and Switzerland. For their aid the Hungarian
Jews organized a Central Jewish Student Aid Committee. Some of the students
returned to Hungary after finishing their studies but the larger portion of
them didn't because of the difficulties of Hungarian recognition of their
degrees or because of other personal reasons.] I myself met a woman who
studied medicine at the German University in Prague because of the numerous
clausus and that was in the second half of the 1930s.
        ESB

Janos,

        It just occurred to me: I don't think that there was such an animal
in those days as entrance examinations. As far as I know anyone who
matriculated could enter university. The entering freshmen paid their
tuition and they either sank or swam. This was pretty much the case in
Canada when I was an undergraduate there. There were no SAT tests and the
entering freshman needed only a C average or such to enter as freshman at
Carleton University. Except half the freshman class flunked out!! I think
that was the case in Hungary as well before the 1948. Mind you the level was
pretty high because so few people managed to get as far as matriculation. I
am hoping that Magda Zimanyi could do a little research on this in Hungary,
that is, on  scholastic requirements for entering university between the two
world wars.

        A footnote to this from my own family history. My father happened to
graduate from high school in 1919 in Pecs which was under Serbian occupation
at the time. In order for him to enter university in Budapest he had to
cross the demarcation line between Hungary and Yugoslavia. He did cross that
demarcation line a couple of time but eventually he was caught by the Serbs
and jailed for a couple of weeks. After that experience he simply attended
the University of Zagreb for a semester, until the Serbs pulled out of Pecs
and the surrounding areas in Baranya County. Although my father told me
stories about these adventrues, he never mentioned any entrance examinations
either in Zagreb or in Budapest. By the way, he happened to know some
Croatian because as a fourth-grader he attended a Croatian-language school
in Eszek (Osijek) which was about forty kilometers south from the town of
Siklos from where my grandparents lived. Pecs was forty kilometers north.
Except in those days (my father was born in 1901) Croatia and Hungary and
the rest of the Austrian Empire was one country and my grandfather was an
open-minded man who thought that his son could only benefit from studying in
a Croatian-language school for a year. (Or he was a bit eccentric, as my
mother claimed!!) My father's knowledge of Croatian came very handy in
1944-45: he more or less could speak a kind of proto-Slavic--as one of my
professors in the Slavic Languages and Literatures Department at Yale called
a collegue's
Russian/Polish/Belorussian/Ukrainian/Czech/Slovak/Serbo-Croatian
knowledge--with the Russian occupying forces which was certainly to our
advantage. In any case, I very much doubt that the authorities at the
University of Zagreb were at all interested how much Croatian my father
knew. He either passed his exams or he didn't. Those were the days!

        ESB