>
> >
> > I forgotten what the subject line was, my message was bounced+lost.
> > Just a note to Eva B.'s statement on the absence of entrance exams in
 Hungary
> > between the wars;
> > There were no student's grants either, you had to have an income to
> > keep yourself, if you were poor, you had no chance (I suppose there
> > must have been the odd scholarships) however clever you were
> > (to take a poorly paid job was the only - lucky(!) - option for my
> > father, inspite the all 1 matriculation from grammar school, where
> > again he was lucky to get a sponsored place).
> > p.s.  read carefully, the above is not an apology for any system!
> > 
>
> ------------------------------ End of forwarded message 1

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   normal

Background:
  Hungary's position in the Danube lawsuit at the International Court
of Justice in The Hague is very promising. However, even if the court
rules in favour for the environment it is possible that the Slovak
government does not accept the sentence.
  It is important that influential politicians of USA support our
position, since in this case Slovakia probably does not dare to reject
the decision of the court.

What to do:
  Please ask vice president Al Gore to make a statement in favour for
the environment of Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached NEW form
letter. Al Gore  will only take notice if he receives thousands of
letters.
      SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!! PLEASE DO NOT ONLY SEND
      THEM BY E-MAIL!  Send them even by fax or "priority
      mail".  Below are the fax number, and the priority mail
      addresses you should use.
      In all cases, put the names of both the Vice President
      and one or another of his key aides on the top of the
      fax, or on the envelope address.
key aides:
Executive Assistant to the Vice President: Heather Marabeti
Deputy Chief of Staff:                        David Strauss
Director of Political Affairs:              Karen Elizabeth Skelton

address of key aides as well as of Al Gore:
Room 276, Old Executive Office Building
Washington, DC  20501
fax number: 202-456-7044

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
(e-mail: )


RE:  First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague


Dear Mr. Vice President,

On the 21st of August, 1993, you wrote to professor Bela Liptak about
your concern for the Danube ecosystem. Today, humankind is approaching
an important precedent: By the end of 1997 the International Court of
Justice will rule on the first international environmental lawsuit in
The Hague.

By this fall the ICJ will decide on this case involving the Danube and
the destruction of its ancient wetland region: the Szigetkoz. This
name, loosely translated, means: "The region of a thousand islands,"
yet today there are no islands left there because the water is gone.
Still, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just one
river or just the 400 endangered species of the only inland-sea delta
of Europe.

This lawsuit will set a precedent for the whole planet and will
answer a much more basic question:  Do national governments have the
right to destroy  the natural treasures of this planet, or does
humankind as a whole have the right to protect them?

Mr. Vice President, in 1995 nine international NGOs have submitted a
memorial to ICJ, which the Court accepted. A Compromise Plan was also
submitted to the Court, which would guarantee the restoration of the
ancient Szigetkoz wetlands, together with fulfilling the water-supply,
shipping, and energy needs of the region. For details of this plan,
information is available at the Web site:
http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm or from prof. Liptak.

Dear Mr. Gore. There is little question that in October the ICJ
will order Slovakia to return the Danube into its natural riverbed and
will also order the restoration of the Szigetkoz wetlands. But the ICJ
has no powers to enforce its rulings. It will, therefore, be up to the
international community to force the parties to obey the ruling. Since
this is the first international environmental lawsuit before the ICJ,
the outcome will establish an important precedent. All governments
must understand that there is a price to be paid for being admitted
into the European Community or into NATO. That price must include
respect for international law. A statement by you would guarantee that
the parties understand this. Please make that statement.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, title and address>

In article >, 
says...
>
>aheringer wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> Jawohl!  Agnes
>> >
>> >German you speak, too, Agnes? And without an accent!
>> >;-)))  Miklos
>>
>> I think we discussed this once.  Remember, we compared Marillen mit
>> Aprikosen usw?  It is my second mothertongue, although since the
German
>> books have been replaced in the libraries with Urdu and Cantonese, I
have
>> no opportunity to read any more and I am getting quite rusty.  Agnes
>
>It4s always pity to loose a skill possessed once. I think, you might
>- if you wish - get some refreshment on the Net. I think, there is even
>Deutsche Welle as TV on the Net.
>Miklos

I tried to go into the soc.culture austria, but the entire discussion is
in dialect.  Thanks for the tip anyhow.  Agnes

Dear Colleagues,

In today's (April 28) New York Times, Thomas L. Friedman wrote an other OP-ED
article against NATO expansion, with the title:"Held Hostage." He lists the
usual anti-Nato arguments and adds a new one, saying that Nato expansion "was
driven by Clinton's desire to attract East European ethnic votes" and could
involve "a commitment of American troops to countries few people know."

This gives us an excellent opportunity to educate both Mr. Friedman and his
readers about the history and contributions of Central Europe. You can write
about 1956, 1968 and Solidarity, you can write about Marie Curie and Leo
Szilard, about Kepler, Copernicus and Bolyai, about Chopin and Bartok, about
the reason for the noon bell, or just about any other contribution that we
and our neighbors have made. But please use this opportunity to point out
that these should not be countries "which few people know about!"
). Do not expect that others will do it for you, do not
wait for an even better opportunity, do not look for excuses for inaction:
act. ("A tett halala az okoskodas!")

Best regards: Bela Liptak

George Antony wrote:
>
> Why, what a sacrifice, riding the tram with Hungarians and eating with
> them !  I suggest your concept of hardship is somewhat cushy and/or or
your
> wording is pretty patronizing.  Though, I suppose you were still more
> exposed to a harshly different world than those fellow churchmen of
yours
> whom I regularly have to pry away from my front gate in Australia.
>

Spoken like someone who has never gone out into the world as a 19-year-old
and tried to make people listen to something dear to you -- and knowing
most won't -- and still learning to be courageous in the face of it.  It's
a hardship to go from Canberra to Sydney under those conditions, let alone
from Virginia to Budapest.

Ah, well.  I don't know what I was expecting.  Just a question, though --
is there not a phrase in Hungarian "ahany nyelv, annyi ember"?  I was
willing to make an effort to understand and come to love a totally foreign
people, and to pay for the privilege.  It's fascinating to me the number
of people who have nothing but evil to speak of a practice that has, at
the worst, no negative effects, and at the best, extremely positive ones.
I was under the impression, after two years in Budapest, that Hungarians
welcomed the chance to let the world know what a noble and great people
they are.  How else is the world going to know?  Advertising?  And when
Fiat and Ford and Honda and Nike have carved up the country into their own
private fiefdoms, wouldn't it be nice if there were some Americans who
cared to defend the Hungarianism of Hungary against the West?

Or am I not speaking to Hungarians here?

When you have spent two years in Virginia trying to understand me, as I
did two years in Budapest to understand Hungarians, your comments will
have some bearing on the discussion.

Kristof

I do not expect Joe to be reasonable; he has nothing but sarcasm and hate
in his posts.  But surely he is not representative of you, George.  Or is
he?

Thomas Friedman's OP-ED column needs to be considered in more than his
perspective.
1.As far as the 1996 political campaigns are concerned, NATO admission of
Central and East European countries was a Dole thrust. He chided Clinton for
not fixing a date for these admissions. The Clinton campaign was largely
silent on the subject.
2. NATO is not strictly a US organization. Practically all members have
strongly endorsed the expansion, including J.Chirac, Chancellor Kohl, John
Major and such countries as Spain, Italy, Netherlands. The Germans in
particular are sensitive to relations with Russia, being the largest
investors there and the Kohl-Yeltsin relationship has been a cornerstone of
European developments.
3. In considering who needs NATO most, would a comparison between Portugal
and Poland be in order ? (This is not to disparage Portugal's important
contributions; they just happened to be in a safer geographical position).
A.J. Vadasz
5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
Warrenton VA 20187
USA T:540 349 1408

George Antony wrote:
>
> Miklos Hoffman wrote:
>
> > George Antony wrote:
> > >
> > > Kristof wrote:
> > > > I could not agree more about fast-food, but I have this feeling you
 don't
> > > > know very much about the Mormon church, or you would likely not have
 said
> > > > what you did.  There are about 10 million members of the church, and
 more
> > > > than half of them are not Americans.  Spanish is the most commonly
 spoken
> > > > language.
> > >
> > > Whoa, millions of Mormons in Spain ?  Never heard that one,
> >
> > ?! You never heard about Middle and South America? And the USA?
> > ( Spanish being there the dominant language soon? );-)
>
> In case you have not read it carefully enough, the original stated that "more
> than half of them are not Americans.  Spanish is the most commonly spoken
> language."
>
> If most of them are Spanish speakers and more than half are not Americans,
> this can only mean a few million living in Spain.  ?Claro?
>

Si, si, senor! ( Mine was JUST the sentence beginning with !? I
thought, WASPs might come back with baseball clubs...but it wasn4t
me asking about the millions in Spain. )
MKH

S or G Farkas wrote:
>
> At 01:26 PM 4/27/97 -0400, Jeliko  wrote:
>
> >[snip]I have never seen french fries served
> >with pizza in Transylvania.
>
> Sorry to disappoint you, there are several places in Kolozsvar/Cluj where
> this is available now.
>
> Gabor D. Farkas
Ecco!

If I were Nato I would be deeply worried, Hungary
seems to choose the loosers for the past few centuries.
Anyway, is it so cut and dried, that it is so crucial
to have for
tremendous expence, nuclear weapons and troups
to be stationed in Hungary? I don't think so.
Who is the enemy exactly?
Eva


>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> In today's (April 28) New York Times, Thomas L. Friedman wrote an other OP-ED
> article against NATO expansion, with the title:"Held Hostage." He lists the
> usual anti-Nato arguments and adds a new one, saying that Nato expansion "was
> driven by Clinton's desire to attract East European ethnic votes" and could
> involve "a commitment of American troops to countries few people know."
>
> This gives us an excellent opportunity to educate both Mr. Friedman and his
> readers about the history and contributions of Central Europe. You can write
> about 1956, 1968 and Solidarity, you can write about Marie Curie and Leo
> Szilard, about Kepler, Copernicus and Bolyai, about Chopin and Bartok, about
> the reason for the noon bell, or just about any other contribution that we
> and our neighbors have made. But please use this opportunity to point out
> that these should not be countries "which few people know about!"
> ). Do not expect that others will do it for you, do not
> wait for an even better opportunity, do not look for excuses for inaction:
> act. ("A tett halala az okoskodas!")
>
> Best regards: Bela Liptak

E.Durant wrote:

>tremendous expence, nuclear weapons and troups
>to be stationed in Hungary? I don't think so.
>Who is the enemy exactly?

Well, Russia or The Soviet Union or Commonwealth of Independent States
or whatever is her actual name.

J.Zs

At 08:46 AM 4/28/97 GMT, Kristof wrote:

<snip>
>Spoken like someone who has never gone out into the world as a
19-year->old and tried to make people listen to something dear to you --
and >knowing most won't -- and still learning to be courageous in the face
of >it.

Stop playing the martyr, Kristof.  You chose to do what you did.  Besides,
for better or worse, who really listens to 19-year-olds, regardless of what
they're saying?

>Ah, well.  I don't know what I was expecting.  Just a question, though --
>is there not a phrase in Hungarian "ahany nyelv, annyi ember"?

There is.  But what does it mean?  Does it mean you're twice a person if
you speak two languages?  No, I don't think it means that.  I think it
means that if you're a fool in English, you'll be a fool in Hungarian, too.
 If you don't speak Hungarian, then Hungarians will never know you're a
fool.  That's what it means.

<snip>
>It's fascinating to me the number
>of people who have nothing but evil to speak of a practice that has, at
>the worst, no negative effects, and at the best, extremely positive ones.

That's your opinion.  My opinion is that religion is a negative factor in
people's live's.

>I was under the impression, after two years in Budapest, that Hungarians
>welcomed the chance to let the world know what a noble and great people
>they are.  How else is the world going to know?  Advertising?  And when
>Fiat and Ford and Honda and Nike have carved up the country into their
>own private fiefdoms, wouldn't it be nice if there were some Americans
>who cared to defend the Hungarianism of Hungary against the West?

How?  By exporting Western religion to them/us?

>Or am I not speaking to Hungarians here?

You've have no doubts we were Hungarians if we agreed with you.  Isn't that
true?

<snip>
>I do not expect Joe to be reasonable; he has nothing but sarcasm and hate
>in his posts.  But surely he is not representative of you, George.  Or is
>he?

Not that I'm looking for any, but is this an example of Christian charity a
la the Mormon church.

Joe Szalai

In article >,
 (MDtoCEO) writes:

>Spoken like someone who has never gone out into the world as a
19-year-old
>and tried to make people listen to something dear to you -- and knowing
>most won't -- and still learning to be courageous in the face of it.
It's
>a hardship to go from Canberra to Sydney under those conditions, let
alone
>from Virginia to Budapest.

I don't think it's too presumptious to say that most people are well
within their rights to ignore a 19 year-old standing on their doorstep
raving about something dear to his heart when he doesn't know jack-shit
about the real world. You apparently didn't learn courage as much as you
learned to be smug.

>
>Ah, well.  I don't know what I was expecting.  Just a question, though --
>is there not a phrase in Hungarian "ahany nyelv, annyi ember"?  I was
>willing to make an effort to understand and come to love a totally
foreign
>people, and to pay for the privilege.  It's fascinating to me the number
>of people who have nothing but evil to speak of a practice that has, at
>the worst, no negative effects, and at the best, extremely positive ones.

It has the extremely negative effect of leaving foreigners with the
impression that most Americans are susceptible to the blandishments of
spiritual snake-oil and willing to annoy the hell out of their neighbors
because of it.

>I was under the impression, after two years in Budapest, that Hungarians
>welcomed the chance to let the world know what a noble and great people
>they are.  How else is the world going to know?  Advertising?  And when
>Fiat and Ford and Honda and Nike have carved up the country into their
own
>private fiefdoms, wouldn't it be nice if there were some Americans who
>cared to defend the Hungarianism of Hungary against the West?

Do tell, Mr. Szalasi. Wouldn't care to deliver a lecture about Hungarian
being a dialect of Sumerian, would you? As a spiritual representative of
the late Messrs. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, aren't you supposed to
take a rather transcendental view of human affairs rather than dabbling in
petty nationalism? Instead, you seem to have thoroughly assimilated the
far-right Hungarian nationalist's version of short-man syndrome.

>
>Or am I not speaking to Hungarians here?

Houston, we have ad hominem.

>When you have spent two years in Virginia trying to understand me, as I
>did two years in Budapest to understand Hungarians, your comments will
>have some bearing on the discussion.

Since I live in North Carolina, then I understand you -- this would be an
argument taken directly from the Janos Zsargo school of logic. It may
comfort you to know that you have rather a catholic and universal
annoyance factor thanks to your incessant desire to talk about yourself.
Culture be damned -- you'd be a boring nuisance in any language.

>
>Kristof
>
>I do not expect Joe to be reasonable; he has nothing but sarcasm and hate
>in his posts.  But surely he is not representative of you, George.  Or is
>he?

Actually, Joe can be right on target every now and then. This is one of
those nows.
Sam Stowe


Think globally;
act eratically.

Eva Durant wrote:
>
> If I were Nato I would be deeply worried, Hungary
> seems to choose the loosers for the past few centuries.

Fair enough, Eva...  Let's hope that finally our luck has turned.

> Anyway, is it so cut and dried, that it is so crucial
> to have for
> tremendous expence, nuclear weapons and troups
> to be stationed in Hungary? I don't think so.

Yes, it is critical for Hungary to inside and not outside the security
umbrella, the same shield as over the EU.  Not as an agreesive stand but
rather as a preventive one.  It is also very important that Hungary's
neighbors, including Romania, are in the club as well.

The rather skittish European Union rather not deal with a country that
has the largest minority problem with its neighbors unless the region is
covered by NATO.  NATO is therefore critical as an entryway into the
European Union, which, in turn is an absolute economic necessity if
Hungary is to survive and prosper in the 21st century.

Will it cost a lot?  Maybe...  But it will be a great deal more
economical than Hungary -- like Switzerland --trying to be completely
self reliant.

Nuclear weapons? Unfortunately, they are a reality in Western Europe
now, and were a reality in Hungary during the Soviet occupation.  The
United States has already stated, however, that currently there are no
plans to station any nuclear weapons in countries that do not already
have them.  Given the delivery systems available, there is no real
military advantage in placing strategic nuclear weapons in Hungary or
Poland.
> Who is the enemy exactly?

Good question.  Hopefully, no one. NATO is like insurance:  your best
option is NOT collecting on it.
> Eva
>

Charlie
> >
> > Dear Colleagues,
> >
> > In today's (April 28) New York Times, Thomas L. Friedman wrote an other
 OP-ED
> > article against NATO expansion, with the title:"Held Hostage." He lists the
> > usual anti-Nato arguments and adds a new one, saying that Nato expansion
 "was
> > driven by Clinton's desire to attract East European ethnic votes" and could
> > involve "a commitment of American troops to countries few people know."
> >
> > This gives us an excellent opportunity to educate both Mr. Friedman and his
> > readers about the history and contributions of Central Europe. You can writ
e
> > about 1956, 1968 and Solidarity, you can write about Marie Curie and Leo
> > Szilard, about Kepler, Copernicus and Bolyai, about Chopin and Bartok, abou
t
> > the reason for the noon bell, or just about any other contribution that we
> > and our neighbors have made. But please use this opportunity to point out
> > that these should not be countries "which few people know about!"
> > ). Do not expect that others will do it for you, do not
> > wait for an even better opportunity, do not look for excuses for inaction:
> > act. ("A tett halala az okoskodas!")
> >
> > Best regards: Bela Liptak

Eva Durant wrote:
>
> If I were Nato I would be deeply worried, Hungary
> seems to choose the loosers for the past few centuries.
> Anyway, is it so cut and dried, that it is so crucial
> to have for
> tremendous expence, nuclear weapons and troups
> to be stationed in Hungary? I don't think so.
> Who is the enemy exactly?
> Eva
>
C4mon, just a bit of geography and a bit of history first.
Adult school, maybe?
( Forgive me. I4s not you I mean. The statement. )
> > Dear Colleagues,
> >
> > In today's (April 28) New York Times, Thomas L. Friedman wrote an other
 OP-ED
> > article against NATO expansion, with the title:"Held Hostage." He lists the
> > usual anti-Nato arguments and adds a new one, saying that Nato expansion
 "was
> > driven by Clinton's desire to attract East European ethnic votes" and could
> > involve "a commitment of American troops to countries few people know."
> >
> > This gives us an excellent opportunity to educate both Mr. Friedman and his
> > readers about the history and contributions of Central Europe. You can writ
e
> > about 1956, 1968 and Solidarity, you can write about Marie Curie and Leo
> > Szilard, about Kepler, Copernicus and Bolyai, about Chopin and Bartok, abou
t
> > the reason for the noon bell, or just about any other contribution that we
> > and our neighbors have made. But please use this opportunity to point out
> > that these should not be countries "which few people know about!"
> > ). Do not expect that others will do it for you, do not
> > wait for an even better opportunity, do not look for excuses for inaction:
> > act. ("A tett halala az okoskodas!")
> >
> > Best regards: Bela Liptak

At 12:57 PM 4/28/97 -0400, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>E.Durant wrote:
>
>>tremendous expence, nuclear weapons and troups
>>to be stationed in Hungary? I don't think so.
>>Who is the enemy exactly?

>Well, Russia or The Soviet Union or Commonwealth of Independent States or
>whatever is her actual name.

Except for 40 years of this century, Russia doesn't have a history of
attacking Europe.  On the other hand, European nations have attacked Russia
often.

Joe Szalai

I am a bit perplexed by the vehemence of the Mormon-bashing
contingent.  Perhaps George or Sam or Joe can explain (in 200 words
or less) why is it that anti-Mormon bigotry is any more acceptable
than bigotry directed at any other religion.  As far as I know,
Mormons do not use mind control, sensory deprivation, involuntary
servitude, or other methods that are characteristic of sects like
the Hale-Bopp lunatics, or the Branch Davidians.  True, the Mormons
are a proselytizing religion, but at least in my neck of the woods
they do not recruit door-to-door.  I have seen them trying to
initiate conversations with passers-by (usually in rather seedy
parts of town) but I always thought being pestered by panhandlers and
religious zealots is part and parcel of living in a free society.
Why would Hungarians be any different?  People who are not interested
in shopping for a religion can always say no, if they are so inclined.

Had Kristof offered religious propaganda on the list, then
I could understand the animus against him.  When people tried that
in the past, they got the ridicule and ostracism they so richly
deserved, and gave up after a few weeks.  I will mention no names...

So let me repeat: in 200 words or less, explain the moral difference
between Mormon-bashing and other forms of religious bigotry.  For
bonus points, you can also explain what dangers the Mormons
represent for Hungary, and why do you think Hungarians would be
less able to resist their blandishments than other folks in other
countries.  Meantime, I for one would be curious to find out about
the number and geographic distribution of Mormons in Hungary, if
Kristof would care to post the numbers.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

Dear Bela and others.
It may behoove you to read the interesting article in The Economist
(current issue) that has a "cost of having Eastern Europe join NATO"

The article basically shows that it would cost the west practically
nothing and the East would benefit greatly.

Udv.
Peter