Johanne L. Tournier wrote:
>
> Haliho, Miklos!
>
> At 01:43 PM 5/12/97 +0200, you wrote:
> >Johanne L. Tournier wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi, Agnes et al!
> >>
> >> At 10:28 PM 5/11/97 GMT, you wrote:
> >
> >> BTW, I've been enjoying some of your comments and Eva Balogh's as well. It
> >> seems to me your situation is one of honest perplexity about what would
> >> have been best for your kids. Maybe the problem is aggravated because of
> >> the distinctiveness of the Jewish culture from Christian
> >
> >Oooops? "Christian culture" as culivated by the church(es) over
> >2000 years ROOTS in Jewish culture, whether they (I mean both sides)
> >like it or not!
>
> Of course I realize that the roots of Christian culture are in Judaism -
> but that does not alter the fact that, as I see it, the traditions of
> Judaism are quite different from those of the Christian churches. In other
> words, I think there is less of a distinction between Roman Catholicism and
> most Protestant churches - especially ones like the Anglican or Lutheran -
> than there is between those churches and Judaism. I am suggesting that it
> is more difficult for parents of the Jewish faith and most Christian
> denominations to find a compromise which allows the children to follow the
> beliefs of both parents, whereas this is a definite option among most of
> the Christian faiths. To say this is not to cast any aspersions on either
> Judaism or Christianity, to my way of thinking.
>
> <snip my stuff>
> >IMHO, your parents might have been not quite wrong. Having "enjoyed"
> >religious education, you may ( I dare say, probably ) happily grow to
> >a tolerant liberal. Else, you probably end up in bare, often aggressive,
> >rejection. My humble statistics point in that direction...I do admit,
> >you may end up as a bigot, as well...independently of the denomination,
> >even as a convinced atheist.
>
> It may be that the Presbyterian faith is so antiseptic and intellectual
> that it doesn't offer much nourishment for the soul, but I think the
> experience of going to church would have been much more rewarding if I had
> been there with my parents.
>

Sure! I think thais would apply to almost everything, not
only to the Presbyterian Church! Antiseptict - I feel the word...
May be intellectual, too...I am not always sure about that...

TTFN :-))

Miklos
>
> Johanne/Janka
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
> e-mail - 
>
> >MKH
> >

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> Joe,
>         I almost forgot: the Munkaspart has a homepage. Why don't you visit
> them. One of their vice-presidents and I have had a long and not very
> fruitful discussion about his party. You can see his picture on the
> home-page. Nice guy and very earnest. ESB
Gimmy the URL, will ye?
Miklos

George Antony wrote:
>
> > The OP-ED article in today's NYTimes by president Vaclav Havel, dealing wit
h
> > NATO and larger issues is both a "must reading" and an opportunity to
 express
> > our views and concerns. Please read it.
>
> Oh, yes, I will just drop in to my local newsagent and buy a copy.
>
> But seriously, why doesn't it occur to people living in the US that not
> everybody lives in the US ?  If there were a relevant article in today's
> Australian, I would offer some summary of it, rather than calling on the
> wide world to read it.
>
> George Antony
Aye! Aye!
MKH

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> Is there a political left in Hungary?  I'm asking because I think that a
> healthy democracy needs both a political left and a right, but all I see on
> the 'left', in Hungary, are political parties that are riddled with
> opportunism, reactionary rhetoric, pessimistic pragmatists, and colourful,
> chameleonlike behaviour.

Just left.

>  In other words, they look like the political
> 'right'.

Exactly. As mostly.

Why does nobody ask whether there is a middle ( somwhere? )

MKH

George Antony wrote:
>

> Hands up those people who think that the New York Times is the world's finest
> newspaper.  It would be preferable if only those voted who have actually read
> others than the NYT and Hungarian papers.

I do raise my hand. I would, however, probably not say THE FINEST, I4d
prefer, < one of the finest >, simply because it4s more realistic, not
only because of my changing mood.
Remarks :
1) I did support your first remark and would have prefered Bela
linking    a copy of the article to the note. I am a subscriber of the
NYT and    know, that else you do not get the article.
2) Apart Hungarian papers and the NYT I do read lot of other papers,
admittedly mostly European ones.
MKH

A.J.Vadasz wrote:
>
> >> The OP-ED article in today's NYTimes by president Vaclav Havel, dealing
 with
> >> NATO and larger issues is both a "must reading" and an opportunity to
 express
> >> our views and concerns. Please read it.
> >
> >Oh, yes, I will just drop in to my local newsagent and buy a copy.
> >
> >But seriously, why doesn't it occur to people living in the US that not
> >everybody lives in the US ?  If there were a relevant article in today's
> >Australian, I would offer some summary of it, rather than calling on the
> >wide world to read it.
> >
> >George Antony
> The New York Times is available on the internet. That's how I read the
> Vaclav article.   Andy
So, you are a paying subscriber?
MKH

Eva D writes:

>I ponder how is better to get the sympathy of Hungarians;
>being shot by the police or being shot by a lynch mob...

>Whichever - to believe that this proves the point of the victim
>is a bit far fetched... and there are counter-examples a-plenty.

It appears the original post on this subject has been misinterpreted.  I
mentioned this not as an example of how to prove something.  Eva is right,
it proves nothing.  I only mentioned it as an example of what Hungarians
told me sounded convincing.  I never "converted" anyone based on whether
or not they got the Joseph Smith story straight or even judged it to be
convincing that he was murdered while in jail.

Kristof

G.Fencsik wrote:

>coverage with the NY Times.  A choice of a newspaper, like any other
>consumer decision, is a highly individual thing, and there is not much
>sense in arguing about whose preferences are "better" by any objective
>standard.  All we can ask for is a market where everyone can find whatever
>is near and dear to their heart, be it a supermarket tabloid or an august
>paper like the Independent.

I disagree, there are objective standards. I guess you mix two different
things, popularity and good quality. A newspaper can be a piece of shit
but popular (I don't mean the NYTimes! But you can recall a lots of
garbage from every country, like Kacsa, Pszt magazin from Hungary).

>solid opinion of its editorial quality.  Did you follow Nick Kristof's
>reporting from Beijing in the months leading up the Tienanmen Square
>Massacre?  Did you read Francis X. Clines' reports from Moscow during
>the Gorbachev years?  Did you read Tom Friedman's daily reports from
>Beirut in the eighties?  Did you read John Burns' articles from Bosnia?
>Or Chris Hedges' reports from Bosnia and, before that, from the Gulf
>War?  Are you familiar with Maureen Dowd at all?  Do you know what
>she does for a living?  Do Russell Baker's columns ever make it to
>Australia?

It's too bad if the personality of the correspondent makes greater
impression than the news itself. It is sad and disgusting if the
audience see the extraordinary masterpiece of XY and not the suffering
people around him/her. You just supported my idea that most of
these reporters is just an 'undorito hiena' making his/her carrier
out of the suffering of others.

J.Zs

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  In spite of several requests of the Csangos (the Hungarian minority
in Moldova, Romania) the Roman Catholic Curch is still not offering
them the Holy Masses in their native tongue. Even the Hungarian
minority in Slovakia do not receive sufficient support from the
Catholic church: They still do not have an own Catholic bishop despite
their adjuration to the Pope.
  On June 3 the President of Hungary, Arpad Goncz, will meet the Pope.
This is an excellent opportunity to ask President Goncz to intervene
at the Pope on behalf of the Csangos and the Hungarian minority of
Slovakia.

What to do:
  Please write a letter to President Goncz and ask him to speak up in
favour of the Csangos and the Hungarian minority in Slovakia during
his meeting with the Pope. Feel free to use the attached form letters.
Letter #1 is written in Hungarian, letter  #2 in English. Since his
e-mail address is unknown, please send snail mail.

Address of President Goncz:
Dr. Arpad Goncz
A Magyar Koztarsasag Elnoke
1357 Budapest, Orszaghaz, HUNGARY

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter written in Hungarian:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<datum>

Dr. Arpad Goncz
A Magyar Koztarsasag Elnoke
1357 Budapest, Orszaghaz, HUNGARY

Tisztelt Elnok Ur!

tudomasom szerint On junius 3-an, Szent Adalbert halalanak
1000-ik evfordulojan, talalkozik a Papaval. Ez a talalkozas egy
kivalo alkalmat kinal az Elnok Urnak a Csango es a szlovakiai magyar
honfitarsaink szorult helyzetere felhivni a Szentatya figyelmet.

Csango testvereinknak  mind a mai napig nincs lehetosege
magyar Istentiszteletet latogatni. A helyi roman puspok, Petru
Gergel, a csangok es az erdelyi magyar puspokok hatarozott keresere
sem engedelyezi a magyar nyelvu Szentmiseket. Tekintettel a kedvezo
politikai korulmenyekre a Szentatyanak csak egy szavaba kerulne, hogy
ezt a tarthatatlan allapotot megszuntesse.

A szlovakiai magyar honfitarsaink a paphiany az egyik legnagyobb
gondja. Tiz ev mulva varhatoan a mai plebaniaknak a fele rendelkezik
sajat lelkipasztorral.  A "Jopasztor Alapitvany" szerint, a helyzet
javulasat egy magyar pupok kinevezese hozhatna. Az alapitvany e
keresere a Papa eddig nem tett eleget, valoszinuleg a szlovakiai
puspoki kar ellenallasa miatt.

Kerem tisztelt Elnok Urat, jarjon kozbe a Szentatyanal csango es a
szlovakiai magyar testvereink erdekeben.

Oszinte tisztelettel

<nev, cim>



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter written in English:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Dr. Arpad Goncz
President of Hungary
1357 Budapest, Orszaghaz,
HUNGARY

Dear Mr. President:

please speak up in favour of the Csangos and the Hungarian minority in
Slovakia on the occasion of your meeting with the Pope on the 3rd of
June.

Several Csango congregations have been asking for years, that the Holy
Mass shall be offered in their archaic Hungarian language. Up to now
their bishop Petru Gergel has refused this request. This denial is
both contrary to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and is
also an affront to their most basic human rights. Furthermore it
promotes the cultural assimilation of a unique nation. Considering the
advantageous political situation one word of the Holy Father would be
enough to solve this unsustainable problem.

One of the major problems of the Hungarian minority in Slovakia is the
diminishing number of pastors. At this rate within 10 years their
number will halve. To help the situation, the "Jopasztor alapitvany"
has appealed to Pope John Paul II to name a Hungarian bishop. This is
opposed by Slovak Catholic interests and to date there had been no
action.

Mr. President, please intervene on behalf of the Csangos and the
Hungarian minority of Slovakia at the Pope on June 3.

Respectfully,

<name, title, address>

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Bela Liptak wrote:

[snip]
>  According to the World Bank and the World
> Health Organization, in Hungary the prevalence of cancer in
1) Please cite exact source. Is this data available somewhere on the Net?
2) What cancer? Or is it a total of all cancers? Please clarify.

> males is the highest ever recorded in the world. Also in
> Hungary, where every fifth male is considered to be an
> alcoholic, the rate of cirrhosis of the liver is 14 times that

3) Every fifth? Considered by whom? By what definition?
[snip]

4) I guess we could help by relaying information about smoking in the
US to the Hungarian government or any agency that is concerned with it.
There are some US examples which I think should be followed in Hungary
as well, e.g., in legislation. A law about restricting certain
imagery on cigarette ads would probably be effective in Hungary as well.
Other than that, I think physical education should be encouraged through
the end of college, perhaps through a credit system. Even if it's just
jogging, soccer, or swimming (b/c of a lack of funds) a few hours a week,
it would greatly help a lot of college students who are currenly not
involved in any sport at all.

Peter Stefanics     "Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious
    people. It is wholly inadequate for the government
(413-597-6723)       of any other."  - John Adams, 1798

            "When rap is inevitable, lie back and enjoy it."

Miklos,

   The NYT on the Internet is free in the States.  Being a subscriber
means
to have access to the NYT. This is the reason that I could send the
article
to George Antony without any problem.
   But George was right to complain - we should remember that some folks
do
not have easy access to things.The article should have been included at
the
mentioning of it.
   And I agree, it is one of the finest papers.George had possibly not
been
exposed to it long enough to judge it fairly.  Other uninformed people
are,
on the other hand, just venting  their anti-Americanism.  But they  do
this
regardless of the topic.
                           Amos
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miklos K. Hoffmann wrote:
>
> So, you are a paying subscriber?
> MKH

>
> As for the personal aspect of Eva's remarks, blanket generalizations are
> rarely supportable.  I am on record with positive remarks about US things
> and people, even though I do not feel the need of regular panegyrics in this
> respect.
>
> George Antony

I think you should leave Eva B's soft spot alone; she thinks the US
media is free of bias and the sole honest presenter of the "Truth".
She is happy, leave her alone...

E.Durant

Excuse me, but what exactly is the function of
a political party? I thought as their name suggests,
they suppose to have a political idea about how to
govern for the interest of at least those whose
vote they claim.  If they have no such idea, they
shouldn't be called a political party, but a bunch
of opinion-pollsters (before getting into power) and
status quo (multinational financecapital) defenders (once in power).

The pattern is the same in Hungary.  I haven't even heard the MP
to say stuff like "renationalisation under full democratic control",
they also flirting with the unsustainable idea of "capitalism with
a human face".  Standard of living falling and unemployment - hidden
or statistically manoevered, but still - rising (Even in the US,
where short term contracts, part time etc are the method of the
downsizing the truth)  cuts the market, and yes - that is the end of
any virtual boom.

E. Durant


>
> I don't see why this is necessarily bad news.  The less ideology-driven
> the politics of Hungary becomes, the more the country will approach the
> political setup of mature democracies.  Notice that the victory of Labor
> in Britain was largely due to the fact that Labor over the years has
> stolen the clothes of its opponents, and ended up winning on a platform
> that was very hard to distinguish from the program of the Conservatives.
> Their very first move (transferring responsibility for day-to-day
> monetary policy to an independent Bank of England) is an act of fiscal
> rectitude that warms the heart of all dyed-in-the-wool conservatives
> everywhere.
>
> The less ideology-driven the parties, the more clear it is to everyone
> what politics is all about: naked greed and the will to power.  The
> sooner this becomes general knowledge in Hungary, the better.  Healthy
> cynicism about politicians' motives is what makes people immune to the
> kind of demagoguery that is still in ample supply in Hungary, on the
> "right" and the "left".   "Watch what we do, not what we say" is how
> John Mitchell, consummate political heavy, ex-Attorney General, and
> convicted felon put it.
>
> By the way, if you are looking for an old-fashioned leftist political
> party of the fraternal-solidarity-with-the-heroic-Cuban-people
> proletarian-internationalist persuasion, then I can recommend you look
> into the Workers' Party.  Its chances of winning any election, for
> M.P. or dog-catcher, are meager at best.  But it does exist.  I even
> met some people who freely admit having voted for them.  What is
> sorely missing from the Hungarian political scene is the equivalent
> of that uniquely English political entity, the Monster Raving Loony
> Party.  But in every other way, we are catching up fast.
>
> -----
> Gabor Fencsik

>
> >There is no need for a Higher Order, thank you very much.
> >
> >E. Durant
>
> I just heard it today:
> "Atheism is a nonprophet organization."
>
> D.

appreciated, a good one for a change...

E.Durant

Interestingly and depressingly I've just seen the first cigarette
advert in HVG (with the appropriate health warning ofcourse.)

Yes, why don't we blame those ignorant Hungarians!

As it happens, the laws on cigarette advertising were probably
stricter in Hungary than in the US now.  Guess who bought up
the Hungarian tobacco industry, and who gets intensive marketing, now
that the west's killing-market is shrinking.   Blame the
stress!    Before 1989 due to the necessity to work two or more jobs
for a decent living and constantly being annoyed by the burocracy,
now on top of the same there is also the worry about having a job
at all,  affordable education, or a working local hospital, crime
etc, etc.

Yes, what we need is a few thousand westerners being paid
by UN and other public funds a few million dollars for  explaining
Hungarians  that smoking and drinking is BAD.





>
> 4) I guess we could help by relaying information about smoking in the
> US to the Hungarian government or any agency that is concerned with it.
> There are some US examples which I think should be followed in Hungary
> as well, e.g., in legislation. A law about restricting certain
> imagery on cigarette ads would probably be effective in Hungary as well.
> Other than that, I think physical education should be encouraged through
> the end of college, perhaps through a credit system. Even if it's just
> jogging, soccer, or swimming (b/c of a lack of funds) a few hours a week,
> it would greatly help a lot of college students who are currenly not
> involved in any sport at all.
>

Physical education used to be pretty decent in Hungary, PE
was obligatory for the first two years of university (you needed
the "signature" for passing the semester.)  It was still like that 2
years ago, I don't know now. Though the average uni timetable is
about the double to the one here (UK).
Please before you "help" get to know the place, it is fairly
civilised, even if the standard of health is dismal. Look for
the structural problems, not for the cosmetical "doing good for
feeling good" thing.



> Peter Stefanics     "Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious
>     people. It is wholly inadequate for the government
> (413-597-6723)       of any other."  - John Adams, 1798
>
>             "When rap is inevitable, lie back and enjoy it."
>

> The purpose of a political party in a modern democracy is to win
> elections.  After the election, the purpose is to distribute the
> spoils.  Political parties are marketing machines used by politicians
> to get power and keep power.  They do not "govern".  They are not
> "supposed" to have ideas about governing.
>

So "modern" means "non-"...

> The issue about nationalization is not who controls it, but who pays
> for it.  Once you find a sugar daddy to pay for it, the problem is
> automatically solved.  He who pays the piper calls the tune.
>
> -----
> Gabor Fencsik
>

What do you mean? It is always paid by those, living on
wages. The forking out is always public. Pocketing the profits is
private. The problem is, who is appropriating it all,
if it is not controlled publicly.
Nationalisation in the past in the west happened when private capital
wasn't able to provide the particular service at all, or not cheap
enough to maintain the system.  I suppose in a more
indirect way this is true everywhere else, the october revolution
was victorious partly for this reason. Again, it was not publicly,
openly, democratically controlled.

Dear Colleagues,

If you have any ideas, suggestions on how we in the Hungarian Lobby might
help in Hungarian health-education, please share them with us.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 According to the World Bank and the World
Health Organization, in Hungary the prevalence of cancer in
males is the highest ever recorded in the world. Also in
Hungary, where every fifth male is considered to be an
alcoholic, the rate of cirrhosis of the liver is 14 times that
of Sweden, which also has a reputation for heavy drinking.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

At 03:49 PM 5/15/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>E.S. Balogh wrote:
>>
>> Joe,
>>         I almost forgot: the Munkaspart has a homepage. Why don't you visit
>> them. One of their vice-presidents and I have had a long and not very
>> fruitful discussion about his party. You can see his picture on the
>> home-page. Nice guy and very earnest. ESB
>Gimmy the URL, will ye?

        You don't imagine that I bookmarked it! Look for "Munkaspart" in
Alta Vista or Excite, I am sure you will not get too many wrong hits. ESB

At 03:10 PM 5/15/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

>Why does nobody ask whether there is a middle ( somwhere? )

        Istvan Szent-Ivanyi, the new head of the SZDSZ caucus in parliament
said that the SZDSZ is in the middle. I would have agreed with him before
they felt compelled to form a government with the MSZP. But now it is
difficult to claim that they are in the middle of the political spectrum. ESB

At 03:27 PM 5/15/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

>> The New York Times is available on the internet. That's how I read the
>> Vaclav article.   Andy
>So, you are a paying subscriber?

        You don't have to pay for it. It's free. ESB

George Antony badmouths the NY Times in these very words:

> As for quality, I found many of the articles previously recommended
> naive/analytically shallow/factually deficient/crassly ignorant of
> other peoples' interests let alone feelings.  (This, of course,
> does not apply to Havel's article.)  Most Australian metropolitan
> papers have more reliable analyses on Eastern Europe than what I have
> seen from the samples of the main US papers.  And my choice for quality
> paper would be the UK Independent or the European.

I have never laid eyes on an Australian daily so I can't compare their
coverage with the NY Times.  A choice of a newspaper, like any other
consumer decision, is a highly individual thing, and there is not much
sense in arguing about whose preferences are "better" by any objective
standard.  All we can ask for is a market where everyone can find whatever
is near and dear to their heart, be it a supermarket tabloid or an august
paper like the Independent.

But I still wonder about the shallow/crassly ignorant bit.  You really
have to read a paper regularly for at least a year or so to form a
solid opinion of its editorial quality.  Did you follow Nick Kristof's
reporting from Beijing in the months leading up the Tienanmen Square
Massacre?  Did you read Francis X. Clines' reports from Moscow during
the Gorbachev years?  Did you read Tom Friedman's daily reports from
Beirut in the eighties?  Did you read John Burns' articles from Bosnia?
Or Chris Hedges' reports from Bosnia and, before that, from the Gulf
War?  Are you familiar with Maureen Dowd at all?  Do you know what
she does for a living?  Do Russell Baker's columns ever make it to
Australia?  Do you really, really consider these folks shallow, or
crassly ignorant?  Or is "crassly ignorant" a synonym for "American"
in the Australian vernacular?

-----
Gabor Fencsik

Eva Durant asks:

> Excuse me, but what exactly is the function of a political party?
> I thought as their name suggests, they suppose to have a political
> idea about how to govern for the interest of at least those whose
> vote they claim.  If they have no such idea, they shouldn't be called
> a political party, but a bunch of opinion-pollsters (before getting
> into power) and status quo (multinational financecapital) defenders
> (once in power).

The purpose of a political party in a modern democracy is to win
elections.  After the election, the purpose is to distribute the
spoils.  Political parties are marketing machines used by politicians
to get power and keep power.  They do not "govern".  They are not
"supposed" to have ideas about governing.

> The pattern is the same in Hungary.  I haven't even heard the MP
> to say stuff like "renationalisation under full democratic control",
> they also flirting with the unsustainable idea of "capitalism with
> a human face".

The issue about nationalization is not who controls it, but who pays
for it.  Once you find a sugar daddy to pay for it, the problem is
automatically solved.  He who pays the piper calls the tune.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

Janos Zsargo writes:

> It's too bad if the personality of the correspondent makes greater
> impression than the news itself. It is sad and disgusting if the
> audience see the extraordinary masterpiece of XY and not the suffering
> people around him/her.

Huh?  The question was whether it is fair to describe the output of New
York Times correspondents as crass/ignorant/uninformed.  I supplied some
counterexamples produced by some of the better known NY Times
correspondents whose name happened to pop into mind just then.  There is
nothing extraordinary about them: they are just professionals at the top
of their game who know how to produce a service people are willing to buy.

> You just supported my idea that most of these reporters is just an
> 'undorito hiena' making his/her carrier out of the suffering of others.

"Disgusting jackal" would be a good substitute, as long as we are
speaking English.

So how do you propose we find out about the "suffering of others"
in Zaire, let's say, except by sending out correspondents to act as
our eyes and ears?  Preferably experienced, self-sufficient, worldly
people who speak languages, have local contacts, and know how to see
through the B.S. put out by the mouthpieces of the local strongmen.
Do you have a better method for finding out what is happening there?
Can you share it with us?

-----
Gabor Fencsik