On Fri, 13 Jan 1995 16:55:05 -0500 > said:
>I agree with Greg 100% concerning the deal on the Hungarian hotel chain. I
>was hoping that the American firm would say no to the changed deal. One
>cannot conduct business this way. The old Soviet Union used act in such
>manner--but what does one expect from a man who studied "finances" in the
>Soviet Union in the 1950s.
>
--I expect that you also noticed, Professor Balogh, that there was a
parallel of sorts with the McDonald's deal in China.  McDonald's had
a long term lease on a prime location, and the Chinese cancelled it
after several years in favor of a higher bid from a man from Hong
Kong.  It is very hard to do business with people who do not
understand that a contract is a contract and one has to live with
the terms once they have been negotiated.  This would appear to be
a very bad omen to potential investors.  There already was enough
trouble in Hungary because of the red tape associated with leases
where the titles of the property were murky.

Charles

On Fri, 13 Jan 1995 16:55:09 -0500 > said:
>Tibor Benke takes issue with me on East European backwardness:
>
>>I am all for objectivity, but Eva seems to have a definite literacy bias.
>>Just who is backward ?   Can backwardness be objectively discerned in the
>>present or the past?
>
>This is one of those untenable, (and stupid, I am afraid), politically
>correct, pious nonsenses. Yes, Eastern Europe was behind Western Europe in
>every which way and we are still paying for it.
>
--This probably won't convince Tibor Benke, but one of the better-known
books about Hungary is Andrew Janos's *The politics of backwardness in
Hungary, 1825-1945* published by Princeton University Press in 1982.
Further, Misha Glenny's *Rebirth of history*, published by Penguin in
1990 titles the chapter on Hungary "The politics of backwardness."
One can make the argument that Metternich was the villain of the
piece, but surely the Old Order of Hungarian nobility were conscious
co-conspirators.  Of course, if one takes the position that all
cultures are equally legitimate, as a good post-modernist must, there
can be no such thing as a backward culture.  And no such thing as
progress, either.  Or even change.

Charles

On Fri, 13 Jan 1995 22:31:55 EST paul said:
>
>I've asked some Chinese students I've met in grad school, and they tell
>me they cannot tell the difference between a Chinese and a Japanese
>but looking at him, only once he speaks.
>
--And I have talked to some Chinese students who I've taught in
graduate school, and they say they can.  So there.  My Chinese
students are better than your Chinese students!  Note:  this
is a facetious comment.  This disclaimer is added for the benefit
of the irony-challenged.

>
>Why?  I intend this to be a generalization from ethnic-based identification,

--I think that the problem arises in your use of ethnic and racial as
interchangeable terms.  You are on safer ground to argue that there
are ethnic differences in behavior, values, food, music, etc. than if
you attribute these differences to race.  Certainly, there are many
ethnic variations that enrich us all.  Eva Balogh's recipe for gulyas,
for example, which is entered in my recipe file.

--I will give you a weird example.  In Anderson, South Carolina there
is a delightful Italian restaurant called The Pasta Place.  The owner
and head chef is Mr. Gershom Chan who grew up in Shanghai.  Is Mr.
Chan to be criticized for "crossing over?"  Is it immoral that he
does not cook Cantonese?

--I will give you another.  My brother, Jean, has been married
for over 50 years to a delightful woman whose single name was Shizuko
Nakai.  Zukie was born in this country to parents who migrated
from Japan in the 1920s.  Her parents made no attempt to preserve
Japanese culture.  Neither Zukie or her brothers and sister can
speak Japanese, nor can they prepare any Japanese food.  Zukie
worked for the American army during the Second World War, and
two of her brothers were in the 442 Regimental Combat Team that
was one of the most highly decorated units in the war.  Following
your argument logically, this must be an offensive example of
denial of one's heritage.

--One more.  The Athertons have always been English in lineage.
There hasn't been anything else in the family since they came to
America in the 1630s.  But my father married a woman whose father
came from Glasgow.  Horrors!  There were those in the family who
thought so, by the way.  Now, the Scots and the English are quite
different.  At one time, this was believed to be a racial difference
with distinguishing characteristics that could be seen.  Beggars
with sandy hair, freckles, and blue eyes were transported to beyond
the Cheviot Hills because they clearly weren't English!  This makes
me a half-breed in your anthropology, doesn't it?  Maybe it explains
why I suffer frissons when I hear bagpipe music and have an
inordinate liking for Stilton.

--My point is that I think you should give up on the racial
differences as being important.  Ethnic features are fine, and,
as I said, we are enriched by them--or some of them anyway.
But I would argue that one could be a good Hungarian without
"looking" like a Hungarian--whatever a Hungarian looks like.

--And Sophia Loren is welcome as a good American.  Or whatever.

MultiCULTURALLY yours,

Charles Findlay-Atherton

Jeliko wrote:



>Benko Tibor has some interesting ideas about equalizing wealth. Let me try
>a specific example. Tibor, I think you are a student at Simon Fraser. lets
>take 22% of your grades and distribute them among those who did not study
>as well. Maybe a doctor who would not pass otherwise can be your personal
>healthcare specialist in the future because you shared grades with him. I
>am sure you would take great pride in having contributed.
>Now it is also possible that after the 22% reduction you would not pass
>either, but I am not going to get into that version.
>Jeliko.

I asssume from this that you believe that currently the evaluations that
students receive in the institutions of higher learning are 100% accurate
and also evaluate exactly those things that  they prupport to evaluate and
the things they prupport to evaluate are really the things that need to be
evaluated.  I, on the other hand, would do away with evaluation of this
sort althogether, because my experience leads me to think that  errors are
creeping in at every stage.  The guild system got along without grades, and
I don't think civilization, such as it is, would be in danger.   For
example, the best neurologist (reputedly in B.C. - a professor of Neurology
at the U.B.C, school of neurology ) diagnosed me in 1975, but he failed to
classify me as disabled, because of which I am now a welfare bum rather
then a pensioner.  I am sure his grades were excellent but he was blinded
by the work ethic.  He saved Metropolitan  Life a bunch of money, cost the
taxpayers some, and ruined my life.   A scientist like you should know that
everything comes down to a theory of measurement and in social and economic
problems our instruments are highly  unreliable - we hardly know what to
measure, let alone how to measure it.   What the fudge factor in different
situation should be, depends on many things, but the market, seen as if it
were a cybernetic feedback system for the ascertaining and execution of the
social will, seems to me highly distorted and thus a somewhat larger fudge
factor than in academic endevours  seems to be indicated.

BTW my name is BENKE. That's LABORFALVI BENKE TIBOR, if that means anything
to you.

Just to return to HUNGARY, (lest I be rebuked yet again for straying off
topic) and while, speaking of evaluations, I read in MOSAIC that Soros's
Central European (Cyber?) University got accredited.  What does this mean?
What are the grades worth?  What would it cost an admittedly stupid person
with a B.A. working on an M.A. off an on for three years, to go there?
Would such a person even be admitted?  Especially if s/he has  serious
reservations about the fundamentally democratic nature of actually existing
capitalism?

Tibor Benke   (who is cognitively challanged and started College in 1964,
but earned his university B.A only by 1988)

 writes

G>Thomas Breed writes:
>
TOM>>          Secondly, it has been well established that Capitalism is
not
TOM>>  meritocratic.
>
G>Whether or not Capitalism is meritocratic, it would be helpful to know
G>if Thomas Breed believes in meritocracy.
G>
G>If not, then the lack of it in Capitalism shouldn't bother; if so it's
G>hard to see much meritocratic in handing out 25% of GDP on demand to
G>everybody with a warm body.
>

This thread started because I suggested that  each citizen's income be
guaranteed to 25% of the per capita GDP.  This is not the same as devoting
25% of the GDP to support the slackers.  In fact,  studies in the early
seventies in Canada  (cf: _Senate Committee's Report on Poverty_, also:
_The Real Poverty Report_)  indicate that the cost would be considerably
less then that of current social safety net programmes, mainly because
administrative costs would decline nearly to the vanishing point. Actually
the amount  paid out per person would be less then welfare payments, but
there would be no restrictions on how one spent it.  This would mean, for
example, that one could decide to live in the bush in a tepee and spend the
money thus saved on computer equipment or recreational drugs rather then
the slumlord's enrichment.   Several libertarian philosophers have also
suggested it, there was an excellent political and ethical tome by an
author whose name I have forgotten, but the title of the book was
_Distributive Justice_.  It pointed out that general adherence to a given
set of property (or any other, for that matter) rules improves with the
tolerability of the worst possible position in the game, (i.e. rules
conceived dynamically in game theoretical terms).

As for meritocracy, I don't believe in it.  It is not really feasable since
what is meritorious and what is not is neccesarily a subjective decision.
Nevertheless, I feel that the argument against capitalism that it, in its
actually existing forms, lacks consistent meritocracy is valid, because
many supporters of the system claim precisely that  the reason it works so
well is because the market allows each player to choose the best.  If
marketers (those who study marketing) really belived that, their services
would not be needed.

To keep this discussion on topic, I suggest  HUNGARY should be the first
country to try true market liberty by adopting a GAI (for those more
cognitively challenged then me:guaranteed annual income).

Tibor

Paul wrote

P>emil wrote:
>
E>>Seems to me that a language which has NO WORD for
E>>"explain" has many other deep problems than to get sucked into minor
>
P>Doesn't 'megmagyarazni' mean to explain?
>
P>Paul

Yes, but literally it means "to render hungarian", which still must say
something about how we think.

Tibor

On Fri, 13 Jan 1995 16:26:14 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>>
>> --Calm down, Eva.  I haven't seen any plan for change that wasn't
>> known in the 19th century.
>>
>That is not an argument against validity: give over your
>christianity, as I mentioned, that is even older than capitalism.
>
--Age isn't the problem.  You tout your approach as a new approach.
You persist in arguing that it is practical, yet nobody has ever
figured out how to make it work.  What the world needs, I guess,
is better people.

>> --You don't read the same press I do, I guess.  Besides, not
>> all information comes from the public press.  And I don't
>> remember anyone shouting "Loonie" as you suggest.
>>
>
>Tony Benn is a the loony of the press here...

--Oh, well, sure.  But Tony Benn is a loonie.  He showed up at the last
Labour Party conference in a suit and was pleasand to everyone.  He's
sort of become like Herbert Hoover was for years at the Republican
Convention here.  An old warhorse of a previous era.
>
>>
>> --What is quality media?  And doesn't my skepticism of the Left
>> count as skepticism?  And, by critical thought, don't you simply
>> mean anti-market rhetoric?
>>
>
>The Guardian is twice as expensive than most tabloids.
>The Telegraph, Financial Times etc, all markedly more
>expensive. I don't know about tabloids there, but here news are
>tucked away to the fifteenth page in two columns between
>Princess Di tits and some other media personality's balls.

--Well, right.  The press situation is different here.  We have a
lot of local papers and do not depend entirely on the Washington
or New York press as the UK does on the London press.  Local
newspapers in Britain, with the exception of the Edinburgh papers,
struck me as pretty weak tea.  We get a Birmingham paper [our Birmingham,
not yours] delivered daily for about stlg. 7 per month.  Of course,
it is not as good as The Independent or The Guardian, but we get
the major news services.  We also get CNN and there are several
24 hour news radio stations that reach most parts of the country.
We also get news from American Public Radio--known here as the
1960s hippie news--so we are actually awash in news.  With all these
outlets, a lot of points of view are aired just to fill the time.
News is good business here.  And we don't have Page 3 girls or
boys either.  We didn't get the Fergie pictures and most pictures
of Princess Di show here in a white linen suit and a hat.  Have
we missed something unusual?
>
>
>
>Balls. People feel totally helpless and hopeless in a chaotic
>humaneless world where everything can be justified in the name
>of profit.

--Sorry.  Can't recognize this image.  Must be too brainwashed.

>The 60s did not make a lot of difference - unfortunately.
>You are scoffing at hope for "peace and love" - good enough
>moral values for me...  If it wasn't for the profit to be
>made out of drugs, it wouldn't be a problem.
>
--I don't scoff at peace and love.  I just don't think that the
1960s produced it.  Or we would have it now.

>They are not exactly motivated, when brainwashed day by day, that
>everything is just fine, only nutty intellectual liberals
>think that perhaps things could be better.

--Having read the arguments on this list, I marvel that you can
believe that Americans all think that everything is just fine.
Clearly, there is an ongoing dialogue--often acrimonious--in
this country on a wide variety of issues.

                 Have a nice day.

--I am chairman of a committee devoted to putting everyone who tells
me to have a nice day in the public stocks where they can be pelted
with overripe fruit by an angry populace.

>I am worried, that scenario can happen again if everyone is
>as apathetic as they are.
>
--Agreed that many of our electorate do not exercise the privilege
of voting.  Some of it certainly is because some feel that it doesn't
matter because the situation is hopeless.  Some of it is because
some would rather go fishing.  But one thing out schools have harped
on year after year is the importance of voting.  God knows the media
give some exposure to the issues--not in network news soundbites, but
in extended discussions on a variety of talk programs and public
television.  And organizations try to persuade their members to vote--
including the League of Women Voters and the American Association of
Retired Persons and various civil rights groups.  It's a real problem,
I agree.

>The only reason....?

--Of course not.  My point is that poverty is not desireable even
to capitalists who ostensibly have no other reason.

On Fri, 13 Jan 1995 16:41:04 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>>
>A multinational can be as big as a country in some respect.
>Be real, I am not talking about Stalinist centralism, why should anyone
>repeat that, if things can be done democratically??
>
--On this we are agreed.  Stalinist centralism is the worst of all
popular worlds.  And what could be more democratic than the market?

>> --Do you mean that Ford Motor Company is unworkable?
>
>I thoughts for a while it had lots of problems... No it is a bit
>recovered due to new markets, but when the gridlock will be solid
>everywhere, I envisage more problems.
>
--Gridlock unlikely.  Fords don't last long enough.  And when
necessary, Ford will turn to whatever transportation system that
will be profitable.
>
>
>So, we shouldn't think about it, should we? I have ideas...

I don't think that you are thinking about it.  I think that you are
fantasizing about it.  Did you have anything to do with the recent
Hungarian hotel deal?

With all due regards, I remain
Your humble correspondent,

Charles

Yes, Robert. It is called Partium. Eva BAlogh

A few minutes ago I wrote a very brief note, basically addressed to Tom Breed
which simply said I have no desire to continue this conversation about the
Great Moravian Empire or about East European backwardness. Then I deleted it.
Not that I wish to continue this conversation in the manner it is
proceeding--I don't. But I think I ought to explain to Tom Breed why my
patience is running out.

Unfortunately, I have to start again with his total lack of knowledge of
either Hungarian or East European history. It is impossible to discuss a
topic with someone who doesn't seem to know the most basic things about it. I
can't quite believe my eyes that Tom Breed is arguing with me about the
relative economic backwardness of Eastern Europe!!!! Let me repeat it again,
this is a commonplace assumption with a huge literature on the subject. One
could argue in what manner did this economic and social backwardness manifest
itself, but doubting the validity of the statement shows total unfamiliarity
with the area. And that's O.K. One doesn't have to be an expert on the
history of Eastern Europe, but then, please don't try to teach me East
European history because you are not qualified to do so. I am always willing
to discuss the pros and cons of East European history but only with those who
show some knowledge of the facts. I don't quite know what Tom Breed's field
is but I don't think that he would be terribly happy if someone with absolutel
y no knowledge of the area would lecture and correct him on every point.
Neither do I.

Eva Balogh

George, Of course Greg is joking, as Charles already pointed out. By the way,
I was actually glad that it fell through. Horn must learn a few things about
international finances and about behavior in the West. However, on
reflection, I don't see any sign that Gyula Horn is learning from his
mistakes.

Eva Balogh

Imi Bokor writes:
> this blank assertion requires some substantiation.

> the fact that something is frequent or usual or customary does
> *not* imply that it is natural. or do you think that driving
> cars is natural?

On the right side of the road yes.
Jeliko

>Paul wrote
>
>P>emil wrote:
>>
>E>>Seems to me that a language which has NO WORD for
>E>>"explain" has many other deep problems than to get sucked into minor
>>
>P>Doesn't 'megmagyarazni' mean to explain?
>>
>P>Paul
>
>Yes, but literally it means "to render hungarian", which still must say
>something about how we think.
>
>Tibor
>

Tibor,

   Now, this is taxing even my patience. This is outdoing Imi
Bokor's *dictionariness*.

   "To render Hungarian" would be "magyarozni", not "magyaraz-
ni". But I will assume that this was a slip. And please talk
for yourself when you are talking about strange *thought
processes*.

   Otherwise - have a great day,

                                    Amos

Date sent:  14-JAN-1995 13:24:59
>>
>A few minutes ago I wrote a very brief note, basically addressed to Tom Breed
>which simply said I have no desire to continue this conversation about the
>Great Moravian Empire or about East European backwardness. Then I deleted it.
>Not that I wish to continue this conversation in the manner it is
>proceeding--I don't. But I think I ought to explain to Tom Breed why my
>patience is running out.
>
First - don't get upset.  Secondly, why didn't you send this to my private E-ma
i
   l
account?  That's why my address follows my name.  Finally, if you wish to
end our discussion about Moravia/E. Europe, you didn't need to post an
entire letter regarding it.  A comment at the end of one of your posts
would have been sufficient.

To be honest, it doesn't really matter why you want to terminate the
conversation.  I had been considering doing so myself, though for different
reasons.

>Unfortunately, I have to start again with his total lack of knowledge of
>either Hungarian or East European history. It is impossible to discuss a
>topic with someone who doesn't seem to know the most basic things about it.

Yes, Eastern Europe is not my specialty.  "Total lack of knowledge" and
"doesn't seem to know the most basic things" are a bit of an exageration,
however.  I wasn't the only person making errors, however.  And I wasn't
the only person making errors.  You did as well (remember Palacky and
Pan-Slavism, etc.).  Anyhow, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy our conversation:
I wasn't intending to make you "lose your patience."
 I
>can't quite believe my eyes that Tom Breed is arguing with me about the
>relative economic backwardness of Eastern Europe!!!!

We were discussing backwardness, not specifically ECONOMIC.  But I won't
argue this anymore, since you've lost your patience.

 Let me repeat it again,
>this is a commonplace assumption with a huge literature on the subject.

Great, history by assumption.  But I thought we were done arguing the
subject.

>One
>could argue in what manner did this economic and social backwardness manifest
>itself, but doubting the validity of the statement shows total unfamiliarity
>with the area.

Now its economic AND social.  I brought in the example of universities.
You brought up Beowulf.  One deals with higher learning and is the basis of
of much of our modern educational system; the other is the last trickle of
Germanic Pagan culture.  But I thought we weren't arguing this anymore.

 And that's O.K. One doesn't have to be an expert on the
>history of Eastern Europe, but then, please don't try to teach me East
>European history because you are not qualified to do so.

I'm never sought to teach you anything.  I was discussing; no more, no
less.  My apologies if your feelings are hurt (sincerely).

 I am always willing
>to discuss the pros and cons of East European history but only with those who
>show some knowledge of the facts. I don't quite know what Tom Breed's field
>is but I don't think that he would be terribly happy if someone with absolutel
>y no knowledge of the area would lecture and correct him on every point.
>Neither do I.

Point taken.  But none of this was necessary.  All you needed to say was a
single word, and I wouldn't have continued.  I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the
conversation:  I did (at times).  I think it is a real shame you didn't
answer me more fully on those issues you know so much more about than I:  I
would have liked to know where I was wrong (or at least be pointed in the
direction of some good books on the subject).

                Respectfully,

                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"

Date sent:  14-JAN-1995 14:07:20
My apologies to Hugh and others,
        I've read through Weber's book, and have found the section you
referred to. I've never heard of the law, but I guess that is no excuse.
(I do wish, however, that Weber had provided a date and/or name of the
law).  I'm familiar with the French Revolution being an important part of
the development of political nationalism, but it's surprising that a bigger
deal has not been made out of this ethnic angle.
                Enough time wasted, (sorry this isn't Hungary related)

                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"

Hi ! I am travelling to Hungary from May to...? (August or longer).
I would like to meet and befriend people who will in Budapest at this
time, but like me have no or few friends to share the beauty of an
easy-going long-term visit.  If interested please reply.

P.S.  I am a male in my 30s, positiv appearance, & I speak Hungarian.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to .
Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized,
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Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to .

Amos Danube wrote:
>>Yes, but literally it means "to render hungarian", which still must say
>>something about how we think.
>>
>>Tibor

>   Now, this is taxing even my patience. This is outdoing Imi
>Bokor's *dictionariness*.

>   "To render Hungarian" would be "magyarozni", not "magyaraz-
>ni". But I will assume that this was a slip. And please talk
>for yourself when you are talking about strange *thought
>processes*.

        Thank you.

        Norb

from H.R.7, NATO Revitalization and Expansion Act of 1995

                                ****
SEC. 603. UNITED STATES POLICY.

It should be the policy of the United States--

that Poland, Hungary , the Czech Republic, and Slovakia should be in a position
to further the principles of the North Atlantic Treaty and to contribute to the
security of the North Atlantic area not later than January 10, 1999 (5 years
from the date of the establishment of the Partnership for Peace), and, in
accordance with Article 10 of such Treaty, should be invited to become full
NATO members not later than that date, provided these countries--

(A) meet appropriate standards, including--

            (i) shared values and interests;

            (ii) democratic governments;

            (iii) free market economies;

            (iv) civilian control of the military, of the police, and of
                 intelligence services;

            (v) adherence to the values, principles, and political commitments
                embodied in the Helsinki Final Act of the Conference on
                Security and Cooperation in Europe;

            (vi) commitment to further the principles of NATO and to contribute
                 to the security of the North Atlantic area;

            (vii) commitment to accept the obligations, responsibilities, and
                  costs of NATO membership; and

            (viii) commitment to implement infrastructure development
                   activities that will facilitate participation in and support
                   for NATO military activities; and

(B) remain committed to protecting the rights of all their citizens and
    respecting the territorial integrity of their neighbors;

that the United States, other NATO member nations, and NATO itself should
furnish appropriate assistance to facilitate the transition of Poland, Hungary,
the Czech Republic, and Slovakia to full NATO membership not later than January
10, 1999.
                                ****


--Greg

Hon. Tom Lantos
12th Congressional District, California



--Greg

CEP is wrapping up another year of recruitment and I thought it would
be appropriate to send out a 'final warning' about the program.  If
you are interested in teaching in the social sciences in Eastern
Europe or the former Soviet Union, please read the short description
below. The deadline is fast approaching so you should contact me as
soon as possible.

A longer description of CEP can be obtained automatically by sending
email to .  To find out how you can obtain an
application (including several online options) send email to
.  In both cases you will receive an
automated reply.  To speak to a human ;-], contact me directly at


Chris Owen
Program Officer
Civic Education Project

> -------------------------------------------------------------

Civic Education Project is an international not-for-profit
organization devoted to the strengthening of democracy in Eastern
Europe and the former Soviet Union through the revitalization of the
social sciences in universities and institutes of higher education.
Through its visiting professor program, CEP sends Western-trained
scholars to teach and advise at universities in Albania, Bosnia,
Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania,
Poland, Romania, Russia, Slovakia and Ukraine.  Teaching assignments
are initially for one year, during which lecturers teach
university-level courses in economics, history, law, political
science, public administration, and sociology, and also work on
outreach and research. Lectures are conducted in English, and
transportation, housing, insurance, teaching materials and a living
stipend are provided to program participants.  Faculty and advanced
graduate students are encouraged to apply.  Write for a
brochure/application packet.  Applications are currently being
accepted for the 1995-96 program year.  An Equal Opportunity
Employer.

For more information on the Civic Education Project and its activities,
please contact:

Civic Education Project
P.O. Box 205445 Yale Station
New Haven, CT  06520
Tel: (203) 781-0263
Fax: (203) 781-0265
E-mail: 
Automated info: 

---
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