A patriot ? an internationalist ? a military leader and revolutionary ? a
peacemaker ?  futurist ?   historian ?  All of the above ? (and more) 

Visit our newest addition to http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/kossuth/  and
peruse excerpts from 48 Kossuth speeches delivered in the USA in 1851 and
1852.    Andy.   

A.J. Vadasz
5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
Warrenton VA 20187
USA T:540 349 1408

A patriot ? an internationalist ? a military leader and revolutionary ? a
peacemaker ?  futurist ?   historian ?  All of the above ? (and more)

Visit our newest addition to http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/kossuth/  and
peruse excerpts from 48 Kossuth speeches delivered in the USA in 1851 and
1852.    Andy.

A.J. Vadasz
5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
Warrenton VA 20187
USA T:540 349 1408

At 08:36 AM 6/24/97 -0400, Barna Bozoki wrote:

>Don't feel bad Joe, "real people" left this list long time ago because
>they can't stand the tiresome insults from Eva Balogh.

Barna, are you "fake people"?

Gabor D. Farkas

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
  URGENT

Background:
  The simultaneous integration of Romania and Hungary into NATO is in
the best interest of our Transylvanian Hungarian brethren, of the
region, and of our peoples and countries. This is also recognized by
the RMDSZ and by Hungarian politicians of the government as well as of
the opposition.
  Unfortunately, the NATO integration of Romania is opposed by the
Clinton administration. We have to convince the US government that the
membership of Romania in the NATO is vital for the European
stability. We have to do this before the NATO meeting in Madrid where
the aspirants for the membership are appointed. Now we have to
act URGENTLY.

What to do:
  The Hungarian Lobby will hand over a petition in the coming days in
which we express our support Romania's integration into the NATO. The
petition as well as a list of people who signed the document is
attached.
  PLEASE JOIN THE PETITION. You may do this by sending a
message with Your name and address (city,state,country) to
Peter Orban:


The names and addresses will be totalized under a letter-document and
forwarded to the White House.

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
LIST WITH PEOPLE WHO JOINED THE PETITION:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

dr. Gyorgy Bathori
Physiologist
1024 Budapest Margit Korut 29 I/2
HUNGARY

Gustav Bayerle
2210 Rock Creek Drive
Bloomington, IN 47401 USA


Zsigmond Biro
#200-6005-103 Street,
Edmonton, Alberta
T6H 2H3
CANADA

Dr Jan Cederquist
Krokslätts Parkg 47
431 68 MÖLNDAL
Sweden

Istvan CSUTAK, former MP,
director of County Cultural Center in M-Ciuc
str. Pict. Nagy Imre Nr. 45
4100 Miercurea - Ciuc
ROMANIA

Laszlo Dosa
Science and Medical Writer
Jupiter, Florida, USA


Fulop Almos
Str.Culmei Nr 10 Ap 4
Csikszereda 4100
Hargita
Romania

Geza Fulop, Ph.D.
Rua das Carpas 76
04648-020 Sao Paulo
Brasil

Everett D. Glover Ph.D. Retired Professor
23 Sherman Terrace #3
Madison, WI 53704
USA

Greta Glover
1004 E. Dayton St.
Madison, WI 53703
USA

Madeleine Glover, M.A., M.S.
President/CEO
Hunport, Inc.
1008 Yale Road
Madison, WI 53705
USA

Michael L Glover, M.A.
Director, MIT Insurance Dept.
8 Myrtle St. #3
Jamaica Plain, MA 02130
USA

Dr. George Jalsovszky
Senior Research Associate,
Hungarian Academy of Sciences
Egri J. u. 40
H-1111 Budapest
Hungary

Dr. Ildiko Jalsovszky
Attorney at Law, Patent Agent
Egri J. u. 40
H-1111 Budapest
Hungary

Géza Jeszenszky, MP, Foreign Affairs spokesman,
Minister for Foreign Affairs, 1990-1994
1357 Budapest, Orszaghaz, HUNGARY

Krister Johansson
Blahammarsg 7
416 72 GOTEBORG
Sweden

Dr. Gyorgy Kadar, physicist
1028 Budapest, Szilagyi E. utca 4
Tel/fax: (+361) 176 8657
E-mail: 

Karoly KIRALY, former senator, former vice president of Romania in
1990, between 1972 - 1989 disident against Ceausescu's comunist regime
str. Banki Donath 40 3000 Sf. - Gheorghe ROMANIA

Arpad F. Kovacs
2101 Belvedere Blvd #1
Silver Spring, MD  20902, USA

Anna Kovalszki
U of M, LSA College
Ann Arbor,MI, USA


Katalin Kovalszki
U of M, LSA College
Ann Arbor,MI,USA


Peter Kovalszki,M.D
IMA-PC
Mt.Clemens,MI,USA


Istvan Lippai
5917 West 74th Place
Westminster, Colorado 80003
USA

Maria Lippai
5917 West 74th Place
Westminster, Colorado 80003
USA

Bela G. Liptak
Adjunct Professor at Yale University
Stamford, CT. USA

Marta Liptak, Ceramics Artist
84 Old N. Stamford Rd., Stamford, CT 06905, USA

Adam Liptak, Esq., New York Times
69 W 8th St., Apt. 11G, New York City, NY 10011, USA

Agnes Liptak, President of Fresco
149 W 75th St., Apt. 4A, New York City, NY 10023, USA

Laszlo MESZAROS
senior software designer
Vecsey u. 17
H-2013 Pomaz
Hungary
E-mail: 

Peter I. Orban, engineer
Maxstr. 7, 52070 Aachen
Germany

Szilvia Orban, student
Maxstr. 7, 52070 Aachen
Germany

Maria Repolski,M.D.
HFHS
Sterling Heights, MI,USA


Balazs Revffy

Budapest, Hungary
1119 Alsokubin u. 7.

Dr. Gotthard Saghi-Szabo
Washington, D.C.
USA

Ilona Szarvadi
Dalbog 3
431 38 MÖLNDAL
Sweden

Peter Szepesvary
5 Bajcsy Zsilinszky str
Budapest 1065
Hungary

Geza SZOCS poet, former senator
str. Cismigiu Nr.1
3400 Cluj
ROMANIA

Laszlo Surjan
member of the Hungarian Parliament
Budapest XII.
Zirzen Janka u. 9.
Hungary

A.J. Vadasz
5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
Warrenton VA 20187
USA T:540 349 1408

Dr. Imre Vago, assistant professor
H-4015 Debrecen, PO. Box 36. Hungary
E-mail: 

George B. Waginger
1900 John F. Kennedy Boulevard
Philadelphia, PA 19103-1428
United States of America

Charles M. Vamossy
President
The  Hungarian House
213 East 82nd Street
New York, NY 10028, USA


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
THE PETITION:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


To:                                         June xxth,1997
     The Honorable Bill Clinton
     President of the United States
     The White House
     Washington, D.C. 20001


Members of the Hungarian Lobby are deeply interested in the future of
East-Central Europe, and recognize the need for simultaneous
integration of the countries of the region into NATO. This would
stabilize the whole region and assure the orderly transition toward
democracy and market economy, without the turmoil seen in the former
Yugoslavia.

Romania, a country of 23 milion people, with affinity toward western
culture, at the same time represents the best potential base of
stability in the Balkans.

Romania's ongoing political democratization and reorganization of all
central and local governmental institutions, the inclusion of the
large Hungarian minority in the government, and the expected
subsequent satisfaction of legitimate minority claims are -- and may
become -- positive examples for the countries of the region.

A look at the map of Europe shows Romania to be the gateway to the
East. Only through this gateway will it be possible to access the
heart of Europe, and the key that will allow this gateway to stay open
-- and to defend it effectively at the same time -- is NATO membership
for Romania.

With an important economic potential due to a large and fertile
agricultural area, her metallurgical and defense industries ready to
produce for her allies, possessing the biggest maritime port in
Eastern Europe, with a multiethnic population and large urban
comunities, Romania is just as much an important future partner and
ally of the European Community and of NATO as are Poland, the Czech
Republic, and Hungary.

For all the above considerations, members of the Hungarian Lobby,who
during the last six months learned, along the the members of Diaspora
Romana, to cooperate in promoting the cause of democratic
transformation oin Eastern-Central Europe,support  the inclusion of
Romania, along with Hungary, the Czech Republic and Poland, among the
first group of countries to be integrated into NATO.

   Members of the Hungarian Lobby :
   List with name, title, address

Well, this is what I maintained all the way through.
See you later this year - Eva D.


>
> I believe both Evas are correct. Hitler did declare himself Christian and
> Catholic in order to obtain the support of the Christian masses. He also
> managed to bring under his control certain Protestant churches. On the
> other hand he crushed any Christian church and lay opposition to his regime
> and encouraged the SS in its old-German paganistic and anti-Christian
> practises and in the formation of an anti-Christian ideology. There is, of
> course a contradiction here between propaganda and practice, just like
> there is contradiction between his "socialism" and socialism as it was
> always understood by the European left.
>
> Peter I. Hidas
> Montreal

I cannot leave this unanswered. Marx envisage
a greater democracy as ever before in capitalism.
His theory is structured firmly  on German classics,
british political economicas and french utopian socialism,
every statement has an underlying and historical validity.
Compare that with Hitlers idiotism.
Even Lenin wanted democracy - compare his persona with
Hitlers. He failed, due to intrnal and external
factors that ruled a democratic socialist system
impossible to achieve - then.
Now you can call me stupid again for a Eva B. standard response.
I'm not interested. Bye for 



>
> Dear Janos,
>
>         I agree with almost everything you are saying concerning the debate
> over Hitler. The very idea that there may be some similarities between the
> extreme right and the extreme left was so repugnant to our extreme
> left-wingers that they immediately changed the topic and launched a
> counterattack. Unfortunately, the duo doesn't know much about nazism and the
> Third Reich and thus meaningful discussion cannot really take place. This
> situation is somewhat similar to Joe Szalai's wrong usage of the word
> "corporatism" not terribly long time ago. A discussion when one side knows
> nothing about the topic reminds me of fencing. You can be Ilona Elek and you
> may not be able to win against someone who has a foil in her hand the first
> time in her life. That person, being ignorant of the "rules of the game,"
> will simply use the foil in such a way that a person with some knowledge of
> the game will be defenseless. That's how it is when Eva Durant talks about
> Hitler, the Christian. We are left speechless because we simply don't think
> in those terms, because we cannot think in those terms, because those terms
> are inappropriate. So, we stand there wide-eyed, shaking our heads.
>         There is one thing I would like to expand a little because I don't
> think that I managed to express myself properly: demagoguery. The more I
> think about the two ideologies the more I think that the only difference
> between them (besides the obvious internationalism versus nationalism) that
> Marxism was a great deal more sophisticated. Marx and his followers managed
> to construct a  pseudo-scientific explanation and justification for
> dictatorship. Hitler didn't have such a sophisticated ideology in his
> arsenal. But does this mean that Hitler didn't mean his particular vision of
> the world and Lenin did? I am not sure.
>         ESB
>
>

"E.S. Balogh" > wrote:

>        Dear Eva Durant,
>
>        I don't care how many quotations you have fished out of Mein Kampf
>which happens to mention the Almighty God, but national socialism and
>Hitler's Germany was against the churches.
>
>        ESB
>
>
Hear, hear!! This never happened before. I. Agreeing with
ESB. GREAT!
Dominus

At 02:10 AM 6/26/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:

<snip>
>I believe Dr Liptak is right in his assumption that the state security
>apparatus is probably still at work covering up past misdeeds, but I
>don't think that is the pricipal reason why the archives remain closed.
>I think the archives are closed because there is no strong pressure from
>the Hungarian public to open them.  Sad but true.  In contrast to the
>East Germans, the Hungarian public seems to show an incredible lack of
>interest in most aspects of the recent past, and little desire to
>understand the machinery that was used to control them for forty
>long years.

Too many Hungarians would be implicated.  Unearth the past and you unmask
today's elite.  Not a bad idea, but it won't happen for at least a
generation because today's opinion makers, and Hungary's movers and
shakers, see no obvious benefit from such disclosure.

Joe Szalai

At 06:22 PM 6/25/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

>Dear Janos,
>
>        I agree with almost everything you are saying concerning the debate
>over Hitler. The very idea that there may be some similarities between the
>extreme right and the extreme left was so repugnant to our extreme
>left-wingers that they immediately changed the topic and launched a
>counterattack.

If Eva Balogh thinks that I'm an "extreme left-winger" then she really has
lived a sheltered life, or she's lost touch with reality.  I suspect the
latter.

>Unfortunately, the duo doesn't know much about nazism and the
>Third Reich and thus meaningful discussion cannot really take place.

This is a typical Baloghian tactic.  If someone doesn't agree with her, she
declares that that person doesn't know much about the topic.  It's getting
to the point now that I would be disappointed if she didn't dismiss my
arguments out of hand.

>This situation is somewhat similar to Joe Szalai's wrong usage of the
>word "corporatism" not terribly long time ago.

Excuse me?  I've always been quite clear of my usage of the word
"corporatism".  I'll state it again.  I use the word "corporatism" the way
John Ralston Saul uses it.

Perhaps Eva Balogh hasn't heard of Saul, and that's OK - a lot of people
haven't.  However, he is the author of several books, including: "The
Unconscious Civilization", "Voltaire's Bastards", "The Doubter's
Companion", "The Birds of Prey", "Baraka", "The Next Best Thing", and "The
Paradise Eater".  And he's not even a leftie.  If anything, he's a liberal
classicist.  And he's not totally unknown, either.  Last year, his book,
"The Unconscious Civilization" won the Governor General's Literary Award.

Now, if Eva Balogh were a bit more collegial, she'd explain why I used the
word  "corporatist" wrongly.  I'll bet it was because I used it differently
from her.  Usually, that just qualifies me as stupid.

<snip>
>That's how it is when Eva Durant talks about
>Hitler, the Christian. We are left speechless because we simply don't think
>in those terms, because we cannot think in those terms, because those terms
>are inappropriate. So, we stand there wide-eyed, shaking our heads.

And I, and other clear thinking people, shake our heads when you say that
Hitler was a socialist.  Next, Eva Balogh will tell us that the Soviets
were democratic because they said they were, and because they used that
word all the time.  Simply put, she never ceases to amaze me.

Joe Szalai

It's comming through a hole in the air,
from those nights in Tiananmen Square.
It's comming from the feel,
that it ain't exactly real,
or it's real, but it ain't exactly there.
From the wars against disorder,
from the sirens night and day,
from the fires of the homeless,
from the ashes of the gay:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
     --- Leonard Cohen

At 07:39 PM 6/26/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

>At 11:52 PM 6/26/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>
>>There is no point in debating with believers. To me, she appears to be
>>one. And as such, of course, she would venerate the Holy Wladimir
>>Ilyich. Bloody? oh, no! he was just annihilating the evil...Discussing
>>is waste of time...
>
>        Yes, I'm afraid and it would be wiser not to engage her and her
>sidekick in any political debate. But, unfortunately I always brake down.
>There comes a point when I can no longer stand it. ESB

Stand what?  The debate or your breaking down?

You know, if you were as wise as Jeliko, you'd set your auto delete and
you'd never see messages from her or her sidekick.  And, if you want to be
very content, set it to receive messages only from >.  I
ask you - can life be any simpler?

Joe Szalai

Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
 I do think that the nazism
> and the stalinism has a lot in common and actually fell in the same category.
MKH
D4accord

> The funny thing in this debate is the way how E.Durant and J.Szalai handled
> the 'threat on socialism' (i.e Hitler the socialist). They came out with the
> idea of 'Hitler the christian' (i.e threat on christianity). Why do they thin
k
> if they prove that the christianity got dirty in this issue that would clean
> up the socialism? Or maybe they want a deal only, we don't talk about this an
d
> in exchange you don't talk about that?
> Also, this counter-offensive gives them back the initiative. It is easier to
> attack something than to defend. (However it is not a surprising move from
> peoples with communistic ideas, the only thing they can do is attack other
> ideas. They feel very inconvinient when they have to show something
>  constructive.
> Just as a reminder, E.Durant recently admitted that she had no solution, she
>  only
> wanted us to think!)
>

D4accord! But thinking wouldn4t harm, would it?

> Finally I would have some questions to Eva to chew on. First, why Hitler's
 party
>  was called
> NSDAP, 'national socialist party'.

Without asking for permission : more precisely : National Socialistic
German Workers4 Party. Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei.
Mind you : Arbeiterpartei!

As far as I know the word 'christian' does
> not even appear in the name.

Definitely does not. Talking about God and providence doesn4t say
he was christian - or moslim.

Don't you think this would mean that the
>  'socialistic
> demagogy' was more important for the party than the 'christian' one?

He was a demagog of his own, but - of course full of half digested ideas
of his time. I think he had a lot of fuzzy socialistic emotions at the
outset - which is of course does not prove a thing against other - fuzzy
- socialistic ideas.

> Most of us probably know what was the 'night of the long knives', i.e when
>  Hitler
> got rid of the SA and Rohm. As far as I know he had to do so, because Rohm an
d
 a
> lot of SA-member took to seriously the 'anticapitalist demagogy' of the NSDAP
.
>  Hitler
> needed the support of the big companies by that time and no longer the
 socialist
> features of his party. This just show how rootless and cynical he was.
>
It could just have been showdown between different power groups within
the party...

Dominus wrote:
>
> "E.S. Balogh" > wrote:
>
> >        Dear Eva Durant,
> >
> >        I don't care how many quotations you have fished out of Mein Kampf
> >which happens to mention the Almighty God, but national socialism and
> >Hitler's Germany was against the churches.
> >
> >        ESB
> >
> >
> Hear, hear!! This never happened before. I. Agreeing with
> ESB. GREAT!
> Dominus
Csillag esik, fvld reng, jvtt ive csodaknak...
Salve salvandi
Miklos

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 08:44 AM 6/26/97 +0100, Eva Durant wrote:
>
> >I cannot leave this unanswered. Marx envisage
> >a greater democracy as ever before in capitalism.
> >His theory is structured firmly  on German classics,
> >british political economicas and french utopian socialism,
> >every statement has an underlying and historical validity.
> >Compare that with Hitlers idiotism.
> >Even Lenin wanted democracy - compare his persona with
> >Hitlers. He failed, due to intrnal and external
> >factors that ruled a democratic socialist system
> >impossible to achieve - then.
> >Now you can call me stupid again for a Eva B. standard response.
> >I'm not interested. Bye for 
>
>         And I cannot leave this answered! Lenin wanted democracy? His
> persona was above criticism? God Almighty! Have you ever read anything about
> Lenin's absolutely ruthless extermination of the "enemies of the people"?
> You think that Lenin and his friends seized power in Russian in order to
> establish a wonderful democratic regime and only "internal and external
> factors" were responsible for their failure? You must be joking. The seeds
> of dictatorship can be found in Lenin's democratic centralism. Stalin was no
> accident! ESB

There is no point in debating with believers. To me, she appears to be
one. And as such, of course, she would venerate the Holy Wladimir
Ilyich. Bloody? oh, no! he was just annihilating the evil...Discussing
is waste of time...
M.

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 10:22 PM 6/25/97 +0200, "Miklos K. Hoffmann" wrote:
>
> >Amos J. Danube wrote:
> >>
> >> Joe Szalai wrote:
> >>
> >> >                    Words and ideas are failing us.
> >> >
> >> > Joe Szalai
> >>
> >> Yes, Joe, we have noticed. And you are doing a good job at it too.
> >>
> >>                                                                Amos
> >Amen.
> >Miklos
>
> Last week I called Ferenc Novak this list's Master Debater.  Now, I'd like
> to take it back.  With the above tiny, perfect, and retentive ejaculation,
> similar to the ones he usually emits, it's now very clear to me that Miklos
> Hoffmann is this lists MasterDebater.  Sorry, Ferenc.
>
> Joe Szalai

Thank you Joe! I enjoyed that!
Ain4t he just cute analyzing?
Miklos Hoffmann

Bela Liptak writes:

> The attached report once again demonstrates that Hungary is not yet an open
> society and that the state security agency is still leading some cover ups.
>
> About a year ago, we (Petrovay, Steitz, Szekeres and I) have asked the
> Constitutional Court to accept us as "class representatives" in a class
> action suit for the opening of the III/II files. To date nothing happened.
>
> I would appreciate advice from any of you on how we might proceed on this
> (without hurting the "good name" of Hungary by publicizing this outrage)
> and yet achieving our goal of opening up the secret files (which have
> already been opened in Germany and in the Czech Republic).

There are other petitions before the Constitutional Court demanding
that the Court take action to open up the files the rest of the
sub-departments (III/1, III/2, III/4) of the old secret police.
(The law as it is currently written applies only to files of department
III/3.)  Some of these petitions have been pending for more than a year.
The Court may have decided to amalgamate the various petitions pending
before it, and one of these days will probably hand down a combined
decision disposing of all of these issues.

When this might happen is hard to predict.  The ways of the Court are rather
opaque even by the standards of Hungarian state bureaucracies.  The issue
is unfortunately mixed up with various maneuverings behind the scenes.  The
Court has been operating  2 justices short while the parties in Parliament
were bickering over judicial appointments.  This has now been fixed, but
the backlog is substantial.  In addition, there is the issue of the length
of judicial tenure (in contrast to the Federal court system in the U.S.,
justices of the Hungarian Constitutional Court are not appointed for life).
It is conceivable that Chief Justice Solyom might be holding this decision
-- and possibly others -- hostage to the resolution of the tenure issue.
There have been rumors about Solyom's ambitions to move on to higher office
after his tenure on the Court is over.  People with a suspicious mind might
surmise that some important decisions are being held back by the Court
until such time as they might be profitably used to further the political
ambitions of the Chief Justice.  Luckily, I am not one of those suspicious
minds...

Various post-Communist states have taken different approaches toward the
issue of access to secret police files.  In Poland, the archives remain
hermetically closed to historians and private citizens alike.  In Germany,
historians have almost total access.  Private citizens have an unlimited
right to inspect their own STASI files, but are prevented from going beyond
that on privacy grounds.  A special office has been opened to tend to the
files, and administer access to them.  The office is known by the name of
its boss (Gauck).  Its operations have have been expensive, probably costing
more than Hungary could afford.  The Gauck Office has 3,000 full-time
employees, and an annual budget of several hundred million Deutsche Marks.
Timothy Garton Ash wrote a wonderful article in the NY Review of Books a
few months ago describing his experiences with the workings of the Gauck
Office.  Definitely worth reading.

The Czech solution to this problem is far less palatable.  Prosecutors
have access to the state security files under the Czech lustration laws,
but private citizens do not.  In particular, those accused of collaboration
under the Czech lustration laws must defend themselves as best they can,
without being able to see their own files.  In addition, there is no appeal
from the decisions of the lustration tribunals which have the power to
banish ex-agents from public life.  This is certainly not what the American
legal system would call due process.

The situation in Hungary is far more confused.  Before talking about
access, we must first of all be sure that the files are protected
from destruction and tampering.  Due to various quirks in the law the
records of the old, now abolished, Department III/3 are legally protected
from destruction.  More precisely, records up to 1980 are protected, but
later ones are not.  This is quirk number one.  Quirk number two is that
under current law, neither the Ministry of Internal Affairs nor the
National Security Office is legally obligated to preserve the files of
the still existing III/1, III/2, and other subdivisions.  It is the kind
of 'ex lex' situation that occurs in Hungarian history with alarming
frequency.  Since these departments used to busy themselves with
espionage and counterespionage directed at NATO countries, it is quite
possible that a bit of housecleaning might be underway in view of
Hungary's imminent NATO membership.  Just another dark suspicion...

Under the law, the newly formed Historical Office (Torteneti Hivatal)
will be in charge of the old III/3 files.  We do not know how accessible
the files will be after they are transferred to this office.  The rules
have not yet been written.  The office is a mere shell with a building
and a freshly appointed director, but no staff, no budget, and no files.
The Court is considering petitions pending before it to put an end to the
'ex lex' state, bring the III/1 and III/2 files under the same law, protect
them from destruction and tampering, and transfer them to the same
Historical Office.  This is definitely the first step.  Once the
Historical Office is in charge of the files, they can be subjected
to normal political pressures to provide adequate access to professional
historians and ordinary individuals.

In response to Dr Liptak's question, I don't think that putting pressure
on the Constitutional Court at this point is either productive or wise.
In general, I believe putting pressure on justices is a bad idea.  I think
they will probably rule in favor of transferring most or all of the files
to the Historical Office.  It is hard to see on what basis the Court can
refuse to do that.  The time to become active and create a slew of test
cases is after the Historical Office gets physical possession of the
files.

I believe Dr Liptak is right in his assumption that the state security
apparatus is probably still at work covering up past misdeeds, but I
don't think that is the pricipal reason why the archives remain closed.
I think the archives are closed because there is no strong pressure from
the Hungarian public to open them.  Sad but true.  In contrast to the
East Germans, the Hungarian public seems to show an incredible lack of
interest in most aspects of the recent past, and little desire to
understand the machinery that was used to control them for forty
long years.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

At 08:44 AM 6/26/97 +0100, Eva Durant wrote:

>I cannot leave this unanswered. Marx envisage
>a greater democracy as ever before in capitalism.
>His theory is structured firmly  on German classics,
>british political economicas and french utopian socialism,
>every statement has an underlying and historical validity.
>Compare that with Hitlers idiotism.
>Even Lenin wanted democracy - compare his persona with
>Hitlers. He failed, due to intrnal and external
>factors that ruled a democratic socialist system
>impossible to achieve - then.
>Now you can call me stupid again for a Eva B. standard response.
>I'm not interested. Bye for 

        And I cannot leave this answered! Lenin wanted democracy? His
persona was above criticism? God Almighty! Have you ever read anything about
Lenin's absolutely ruthless extermination of the "enemies of the people"?
You think that Lenin and his friends seized power in Russian in order to
establish a wonderful democratic regime and only "internal and external
factors" were responsible for their failure? You must be joking. The seeds
of dictatorship can be found in Lenin's democratic centralism. Stalin was no
accident! ESB

At 06:29 PM 6/26/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>Excuse me?  I've always been quite clear of my usage of the word
>"corporatism".  I'll state it again.  I use the word "corporatism" the way
>John Ralston Saul uses it.

        But as John Ralston Saul, the famous Canadian author, uses it is not
the accepted usage. Look it up in the dictionary. Here is the proper
description: "organization of a society into industrial and professional
corporations serving as organs of political representation and exercising
some control over persons and activities within their jurisdiction." For
example, the great Jozsef Torgyan would like to reestablish the Upper House
which would be organized on this basis. Corporatism is not exactly a leftist
idea--on the contrary! Moreover, it has absolutely has nothing to do with
corporations (i.e., companies which had been incorporated) John Ralston
Saul's usage notwithstanding. ESB

At 11:52 PM 6/26/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

>There is no point in debating with believers. To me, she appears to be
>one. And as such, of course, she would venerate the Holy Wladimir
>Ilyich. Bloody? oh, no! he was just annihilating the evil...Discussing
>is waste of time...

        Yes, I'm afraid and it would be wiser not to engage her and her
sidekick in any political debate. But, unfortunately I always brake down.
There comes a point when I can no longer stand it. ESB