Janos!

>>How nice it is to see Peter on this list again.It must be the result of the
>closing of Forum?Szabad?
>Andy Kozma

I don't give a shit about this list. It was an accident. I did not pay
attention to the header. I only tried to be nice. I thought the greeting
was from you to me!  But I guess it was mistake on my part to be nice,
because what I got back from you, ....  is nothing but horse manure!

Best Regards to all: NPA.

At 12:00 AM 4/1/97 -0400, you Janos Zsargo wrote:


>>P.S. -- Okay, Janos, your turn. Why did you come to the U.S. to study and
why
>>couldn't you find somewhere less godforsaken than Toledo?
>
>Partly because I was not admitted to other universities and partly because I
>knew some people here in Toledo.
>
>J.Zs

Now, Janos, here was your opportunity to pay my friend (Sam) with a coin
he understands: you should have told him that you went to Toledo because
of Pako's Famous HotDogs.

Bandi

On Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:45:16 GMT, my buddy Sam Stowe wrote

[......snip.....]
>The historical record, as much as you may want to
>deny it, is there and it's worth arguing over. You credit me with far more
>assurance than I've shown, but we must take
>our straw men where we can find them, I suppose.
[..........]

You must enjoy this banter a lot, otherwise you would remember that we
settled the issue regarding national cognitive dissonance some time ago.

What do you think is the rationale in the founding of the (American)
Institute for the Revision of History?

How can we expect the psyche of a nation that has been stomped
on for a thousand years to bear the burden of responsibility
for something that is emotionally and ethically unacceptable?

You are flogging a dead horse, methinks.

Bandi

At 07:43 PM 3/31/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>Eva, te tenyleg ilyen hulyenek nezel? Lehet, hogy nem vagyok egy eszkombajn
>de azert kinottem mar az ovodaskorbol.

        As long as you write such silly things as you did about Sam's
Hungarian ancestors, don't be upset!
        ESB

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:    (Leslie T Eloed)
Reply-to:       
To:     
CC:     
Date: 97-03-31 20:32:54 EST

Kedves Bela,

Az egy het hagaban irasodat feltettem az Interneten a WEB-sitemre.
Feltetlenul nezd meg, s jo lenne ha tudatnad levelezesi listaddal, hogy
ez a Site megindult, s ezen megtalalhatoak nemely irasaid is.

A fo  URL:  Http://www.arpad.com

Ezen belul talalod a "Current Events" / Idoszeru temak alatt  fenti
hivatkozasomat. Ha van nehany perced, fuss at rajtuk, s jelezz vissza
amint lehet.

Olellek,

Elod Laci

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:      URGENT

Background:
    The Danube lawsuit at the International Court in The Hague
started March 3. This lawsuit will adjudicate the dispute between
Hungary and Slovakia concerning the rerouting of the Danube onto
Slovak territory.
    It is essential that we gain publicity on the lawsuit and the
support of world public opinion. Especially the support of American
politicians and leaders such as Secretary of State MADELEINE ALBRIGHT
would mean a lot for our cause.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to
make a statement in favor of the Danube. Feel free to use the attached
form letters (letter #1 for Americans, letter #2 for non-Americans).
   IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALBRIGHT FINDS THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN HER
MAILBOX. Therefore please make a chain letter of this call for action.
Send it to at least 5 of your friends.
  PLEASE ACT!! Please SEND EVEN SNAIL MAIL. These are more effective.
FURTHERMORE SEND COPIES OF YOUR LETTER TO:
    Executive Assistant, Maura Harty
    Special Assistant, Carlene Ackerman
    Senior Advisor, Robert O. Boorstin (Room 7246)
    Assistant Secretary for Oceans, & International Environmental and
Scientific Affairs Bureau, Eileen B. Claussen (Room 7831)

address:
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520

e-mail address of Madeleine Albright:


*************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE:  First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which to us Americans with Central European roots gives a special ray
of hope. We hope for even greater American understanding and
compassion for the people of Central Europe, for their progress and
stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is
in progress at the International Court of Justice in The Hague. This
new tone would be consistent with the US policy of expanding Western
structures to Central and Eastern Europe, and of engaging the US more
actively in helping to resolve emerging international conflicts in
the region by (1) urging your Western European partners to assist
more proactively; and (2) calling on both parties (Hungary and
Slovakia) to accept the Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental
NGOs and thereby cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set
an example for the future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
a regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which gives a special ray of hope to the people of Central Europe. We
hope for even greater American understanding and compassion for the
people of Central Europe, for their progress and stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is in
progress at the International Court of Justice in The Hague. This new
tone would be consistent with the US policy of expanding Western
structures to Central and Eastern Europe, and of engaging the US more
actively in helping to resolve emerging international conflicts in the
region by (1) urging your Western European partners to assist more
proactively; and (2) calling on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to
accept the Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental NGOs and
thereby cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set an example
for the future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
a regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>

In article >, Janos
Zsargo > writes:

>Subject:       Re: numerus clausus in the U.S.
>From:  Janos Zsargo >
>Date:  Mon, 31 Mar 1997 20:43:33 -0500
>
>S.Stowe wrote:
>
>>No offense taken. I have no know Hungarian forebears, although I'm not sure
>how
>>that either qualifies or disqualifies me from commenting on Hungarian
>history
>>and current events.
>
>I was just interested in your motivations.

As I said before, no offense taken.

>
>>I've been interested in Hungary for nearly 15 years and have spent most of
>>that time trying to learn as much about it as I could.
>
>You mean this was your main occupation for 15 years ?!? And why, why did you
>spend all of this time to study the history of a tiny little country in
>Europe? It is kind, though! (I am serious!) If you don't want to answer
>that's OK, this is getting to be too personal.

Of course I didn't make it my main occupation. I like Hungarian cuisine,
literature and music, the history is fascinating and Hungarians themselves are
wonderful folks.

>
>>I don't know how you could judge whether I speak or understand Hungarian or
>>not and to what degree because I have never, to my knowledge, made much
>>mention one way or another about my Hungarian.
>
>Once you replied to one of my comment in Hungarian that you was not going
>to spend your time looking for in your dictionary what a ...(you used a
>nasty expression).. wrote.

Yes, but the nasty expression was in English. That still doesn't give you much
of a clue as to how much Hungarian I do or don't speak.

>
>>And I don't think I've explained how Hungarians feel or think to other
>>Hungarians.
>
>Yes, indeed you did. You wrote to Jeliko something like "the idea to
>discriminate and kill en masse still has a great credit in Hungary".
>And I was reading that post and several other Hungarian as well.

Judging from what I read on this newsgroup and others and in those Hungarian
papers which have a Web presence, there are a lot of your countrymen who aren't
willing to honestly address the country's
recent past with regard to its treatment of some ethnic groups. There are a lot
of people (too many for my comfort) in this country who want to arm themselves
with automatic weapons and explosives
and start a race war. They have blown up a federal court house, killed people
in several parts of the country and I have no problem with repudiating them.
They represent a strain of American history
going back well over a century, a strain of fanaticism this country could get
along well without. But I'm not optimistic enough to think that will happen
anytime soon. I'm willing to live without
quite so many romantic illusions about my country. How about you?

>
>>The historical record, as much as you may want to
>>deny it, is there and it's worth arguing over.
>
>The historical records say (if they do) who did, what and when (as far
>as I know). They rarely provide direct information about the why-s.
>Those what we have about the why-s are mainly opinions and speculations.
>I am not trying to deny anything just have a bit different opinion.

I understand that. I also see you snipped the part I wrote that we'd have to
confine history to the oldest living person in any society under the guidelines
you've laid out. You do understand that
valuable clues to what is going on in a society's present situation can be
found in its reaction to its own history, don't you? That's why the tendency to
play down the uglier parts of the interwar
years concerns me.

>
>>P.S. -- Okay, Janos, your turn. Why did you come to the U.S. to study and
>why
>>couldn't you find somewhere less godforsaken than Toledo?
>
>Partly because I was not admitted to other universities and partly because I
>knew some people here in Toledo.

Okay, a few more questions:
1) What are you studying?
2) Where else did you apply? You strike me as being a pretty smart guy. I can't
believe someone else turned you down.
3) What's the deal with Pako's famous hot dogs? (Note to Bandi: I practically
grew up in a meat-packing plant. These dogs had better be good.)
Sam Stowe

"As Bob is my witless..."
-- Angelica Pickles, "Rugrats"

In article >, "Istvan Lippai"
> writes:

>Janos Zsargo
>> Sahib, I would like to ask a question. Mind to tell us what is your
>source of
>> information on Hungary/Hungarians?
>
>He  gets all the dirt he needs on Hungarians, mostly fabricated, from Eva
>Balogh.
>
>Concerning you, and some of you who still think of yourselves Hungarians, I
>have one bit of advise; if you go to bed with dogs, you will wake up with
>fleas.
>
>Istvan

Congratulations on screwing up Forum/Szabad for everyone else, Steve. I'm sure
you're very proud of yourself. Lithium still not working for you?
Sam Stowe

"As Bob is my witless..."
-- Angelica Pickles, "Rugrats"

In article >, "Andrew J.
Rozsa" > writes:

>Subject:       Re: Numerus.....
>From:  "Andrew J. Rozsa" >
>Date:  Tue, 1 Apr 1997 03:00:25 -0400
>
>On Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:45:16 GMT, my buddy Sam Stowe wrote
>
>[......snip.....]
>>The historical record, as much as you may want to
>>deny it, is there and it's worth arguing over. You credit me with far more
>>assurance than I've shown, but we must take
>>our straw men where we can find them, I suppose.
>[..........]
>
>You must enjoy this banter a lot, otherwise you would remember that we
>settled the issue regarding national cognitive dissonance some time ago.

Did we? I remember sending you a detailed private e-mail trying to discuss the
issue at greater length and you never replied. I don't know that we've settled
anything about national cognitive
dissonance because you bailed on me, bubba.What have we come to when one
Southerner can't trust another one to muse philosophical and at an ad nauseum
length?


>What do you think is the rationale in the founding of the (American)
>Institute for the Revision of History?

Beats the hell out of me. They didn't call me or send me a membership brochure.
I guess that's what I get for not listening to Rush.


>How can we expect the psyche of a nation that has been stomped
>on for a thousand years to bear the burden of responsibility
>for something that is emotionally and ethically unacceptable?

Here, you do have a point. Does that mean we should refrain from making any
effort to strengthen it to bear such a burden? The past, after all, is past.
I'd just hate to see it re-occur in the
future. As much good faith as whites and blacks put into the civil rights
struggle here in the States, we still haven't come a long ways in thirty or
forty years in terms of accepting one another as
individuals. Collectively, things are better for blacks because they have much
more access to good education and good jobs than before. But individually? We
still segregate ourselves outside the
classroom and the office for the most part. Given its recent history, how much
more of a challenge in this area does Hungary face?

>You are flogging a dead horse, methinks.

I doubteth not that thou'rt right on the money. Still, it keeps me off the
streets.
Sam Stowe

"As Bob is my witless..."
-- Angelica Pickles, "Rugrats"

At 10:10 PM 3/31/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Janos!
>
>>>How nice it is to see Peter on this list again.It must be the result of the
>>closing of Forum?Szabad?
>>Andy Kozma
>
>I don't give a shit about this list. It was an accident. I did not pay
>attention to the header. I only tried to be nice. I thought the greeting
>was from you to me!  But I guess it was mistake on my part to be nice,
>because what I got back from you, ....  is nothing but horse manure!
>
>Best Regards to all: NPA.
>
>How does it taste?
Andy Kozma

Toronto.

In article >, "Miklos K. Hoffmann"
> writes:

>With Mr. Stowe, discussion futile. He is - by God4s grace -
>erratically announcing "judgements" and he becomes course, if
>anybody tries to analyse, to differentiate the issue.
>
>MKH

Horse hockey. You tried to lie about whether or not I'd acknowledge some of the
mistreatment of groups here in the States. I pointed out to you that I had
raised the question of the treatment of
blacks in the U.S. at least twice in this thread. If you can't take the heat,
stay out of the kitchen. And please learn some idiomatic English, for Pete's
sake.
Sam Stowe

"As Bob is my witless..."
-- Angelica Pickles, "Rugrats"

NPA wrote:

>Janos!
>
>>>How nice it is to see Peter on this list again.It must be the result of the
>>closing of Forum?Szabad?
>>Andy Kozma
>
>I don't give a shit about this list. It was an accident. I did not pay
>attention to the header. I only tried to be nice. I thought the greeting
>was from you to me!  But I guess it was mistake on my part to be nice,
>because what I got back from you, ....  is nothing but horse manure!
>
>Best Regards to all: NPA.

My greeting was ment to everyone from NPA to E.Balogh.
Furthermore I do not care whether NPA or anybody else is on this list
or not. If I don't like a post I can always delete it.
Andy Kozma is the one who had/s problem with NPA and others and their
presence on this list.
NPA, sorry to disappoint you, but I did not even answer to your Easter
Greeting.

A.Kozma wrote:

>At 10:10 PM 3/31/97 -0600, you wrote:
>>Janos!
>>
>>>>How nice it is to see Peter on this list again.It must be the result of the
>>>closing of Forum?Szabad?
>>>Andy Kozma
>>
>>I don't give a shit about this list. It was an accident. I did not pay
>>attention to the header. I only tried to be nice. I thought the greeting
>>was from you to me!  But I guess it was mistake on my part to be nice,
>>because what I got back from you, ....  is nothing but horse manure!
>>
>>Best Regards to all: NPA.
>>
>>How does it taste?
>Andy Kozma

Dear Andy, would you mind stirring the shit at your own kitchen? Thank you
in advance1

J.Zs

Yesterday I ended one of my posts with an obvious cliche'.  I usually don't use
 cliche's so I started thinking about them.  I was trying to think of some
 Hungarian cliche's but couldn't.  Can anyone on this list help?  If you can,
 please give an English translation.  Also, does anyone know of cliche's that
 are used in both languages?

Just so we're talking about the same thing, I'll define cliche'.

A cliche' is a trite or overused expression or idea.
It's an expression or idea that has lost its originality or force through
 overuse.

Joe Szalai

The cliche' organizes life; it expropriates people's identity; it becomes ruler
,
 defense lawyer, judge, and the law.
              -- Va'clav Havel

Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:
>
> On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, E.S. Balogh wrote:
>

> that doesn't hold them back from assuming that, say, the lifestyle of
> Gipsies must not have changed in half a century or else some Hungarians
> could not possibly harbor prejudice against them (to cite just one bizarre
> example from this thread)...
>
> --
Say just this again?
MKH

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 01:13 PM 3/31/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote to Sam Stowe:
>
> >Sahib, I would like to ask a question. Mind to tell us what is your source o
f
> >information on Hungary/Hungarians? Do you know personally N pieces of
> Hungarians
> >or you have lived M years in Hungary (maybe during the period in question,
 i.e
> >20s/30s) or you simple read Z+1 books about Hungary? And what makes you so
> >sure about your judgements, it is funny that you are explaining how the
> >Hungarians feel and think to Hungarians.
> >BTW, just plain curiousity, what do you have to do with Hungary at all? Your
> >name does not imply any 'Hungarian connection'. It seems you do not speak/
> >understand much Hungarian. So why did you choose to read Hungary list and
> >not the Swaheli?
> >Do not feel offended, please, I am really curious only!
>
>         Without wanting to get embroiled in this particular discussion here,
> I would like to point out to Janos that the above is a very weak argument.
> One doesn't have to be Hungarian, French, Italian, or anything else in order
> to know a great deal about Hungary, France, Italy, or any other country. In
> fact, I found that at least among historians dealing with Hungarian history
> it is almost an advantage not to be a Hungarian because that way the person
> is free of any emotional ties or national prejudices.
>         This kind of argument greatly resembles an other one which can be
> often heard: "you don't really *understand* what is going on in Hungary
> because you don't live there." My answer is that often people who are not
> directly influenced by everyday economic and political life within the
> country can see the situation far better and far more objectively than those
> whose judgment is influenced by being affected by the country's economic and
> political circumstances. I for one can gauge American foreign policy
> thinking far more accurately than someone less familiar with the United
> States or simply looking at the question from a Hungaro-centric point of
> view. A good example for the latter was an exchange between a politically
> active lawyer from Hungary and myself concerning the possibility of a
> right-wing government in Budapest. I pointed out that a Torgyan government
> wouldn't do much good for American-Hungarian relations. The lawyer, although
> he is an SZDSZ supporter, maintained that the Americans shouldn't get too
> upset about Mr. Torgyan's rhetoric because, after all, they have their
> Buchanan. I found this reaction astonishing because although this may be the
> case, it wouldn't help Hungary's case a bit by saying to those nasty people
> in the State Department: "After all, you have a Buchanan also." Big deal!
> They will be most impressed! Yet, my lawyer was dead serious.
>         As far as the Jewish question is concerned, Hungary, like other
> German-occupied countries, has not taken full stock of its own past. There
> is a tendency--not restricted to this question but also cocnerning such
> tricky questions as collaboration with the Soviets or communists after
> 1945--to blame exclusively others for unsavory deeds. In the case of the
> fate of Hungarian Jewry, the Germans,and, in the case of the Rakosi regime,
> those nasty communist intellectuals. It wasn't that simple in either case.
>         Eva
I didn4t read it as an argument, but rather, as a question.
One becomes indeed curious if someone is pretending to see
the mind of his fellow men.

In history, this ended sometimes rather brutally. ( Not only in New
Haven and Bridgeport ( Stanley Milgram : Obedience to Authority.
( see also >tekintely< @ hgv ) An Experiment View, Harper & Roow, I
think around 1974 )).
MKH

Andrew J. Rozsa wrote:
>
> On Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:45:16 GMT, my buddy Sam Stowe wrote
>
> [......snip.....]
> >The historical record, as much as you may want to
> >deny it, is there and it's worth arguing over. You credit me with far more
> >assurance than I've shown, but we must take
> >our straw men where we can find them, I suppose.
> [..........]
>
> You must enjoy this banter a lot, otherwise you would remember that we
> settled the issue regarding national cognitive dissonance some time ago.
>
> What do you think is the rationale in the founding of the (American)
> Institute for the Revision of History?
>
> How can we expect the psyche of a nation that has been stomped
> on for a thousand years to bear the burden of responsibility
> for something that is emotionally and ethically unacceptable?
>
> You are flogging a dead horse, methinks.
>
> Bandi
Psychologist, I presume? :-) ( or just wise ( which would be even more))
MKH

Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
> E.Balogh wrote:
>
> >>Sahib, I would like to ask a question. Mind to tell us what is your source
 of
> >>information on Hungary/Hungarians? Do you know personally N pieces of
> Hungarians
> >>or you have lived M years in Hungary (maybe during the period in question,
 i.e
> >>20s/30s) or you simple read Z+1 books about Hungary? And what makes you so
> >>sure about your judgements, it is funny that you are explaining how the
> >>Hungarians feel and think to Hungarians.
> >>BTW, just plain curiousity, what do you have to do with Hungary at all? You
r
> >>name does not imply any 'Hungarian connection'. It seems you do not speak/
> >>understand much Hungarian. So why did you choose to read Hungary list and
> >>not the Swaheli?
> >>Do not feel offended, please, I am really curious only!
> >
> >        Without wanting to get embroiled in this particular discussion here,
> >I would like to point out to Janos that the above is a very weak argument.
>
> Eva, you are absolutly right, this is indeed a very weak argument. So weak
> that it is not even an argument, as the above was only a question. Sorry,
> I do not know any other way to get answer than simple ask for it. Maybe I
> was sarcastic, true, but you know that I don't have very high opinion
> about Sam's knowledge and judgement. I may have been a little bit more
> polite, but Sam rarely addresses me kindly, so I guess it was justified.
> BTW what do you think my last sentence was supposed to mean?
>
> >One doesn't have to be Hungarian, French, Italian, or anything else in order
> >to know a great deal about Hungary, France, Italy, or any other country. In
> >fact, I found that at least among historians dealing with Hungarian history
> >it is almost an advantage not to be a Hungarian because that way the person
> >is free of any emotional ties or national prejudices.
>
> Eva, te tenyleg ilyen hulyenek nezel? Lehet, hogy nem vagyok egy eszkombajn
> de azert kinottem mar az ovodaskorbol.
>
> J.Zs
Elhiszem Neked. De honnan tudja ezt az Eva? :-)
Miklos

At 02:06 PM 4/1/97 GMT, Sam wrote to Bandi Rozsa:

>Here, you do have a point. Does that mean we should refrain from making any
>effort to strengthen it to bear such a burden? The past, after all, is past.
>I'd just hate to see it re-occur in the
>future. As much good faith as whites and blacks put into the civil rights
>struggle here in the States, we still haven't come a long ways in thirty or
>forty years in terms of accepting one another as
>individuals. Collectively, things are better for blacks because they have much
>more access to good education and good jobs than before. But individually? We
>still segregate ourselves outside the
>classroom and the office for the most part. Given its recent history, how much
>more of a challenge in this area does Hungary face?
>
>>You are flogging a dead horse, methinks.

        I hope not. This constant denial of everything which might not
reflect well on the country prevents people from an objective appreciation
of history. Or at best there is a need of constantly explaining things away.
Somehow always someone else, or just simply fate, is responsible for our
misfortunes. And, if you try to give a more objective interpretation of
history then you are labelled a traitor, or a communist, or anti-Hungarian.
        This phrase "anti-Hungarian" is becoming extremely popular lately in
certain circles. Istvan Csurka especially likes the phrase. His so-called
economist, a certain Erzsebet Gidai (formerly senior research associate of
the Tarsadalomtudomanyi Intezet of the communist party's central committee)
announced about two weeks ago that the World Bank and the International
Monetary Fund are purposely ruining Hungarian health care because--and now
you listen carefully--they figured out that there are three million more
Hungarians than needed in the work force. So, in plain language, these nasty
organizations simply want to kill a few million Hungarians. Csurka, during
his March 15th speech, announced that these organizations hate Hungarians
"just because" they are Hungarians!!! Apparently vigorous applause followed
this brilliant observation. Here we are speaking of serious paranoia. And
this paranoia pervades the whole right. One prominent member of the former
SZABAD is convinced that the SZABAD had to be closed because one of the
contributors called attention to a Forbes magazine article on Soros which
claimed that Soros is financing the SZDSZ and before any discussion could
have taken place of this topic, bang, the SZABAD was closed. The only
conclusion that I can draw from this that according to this gentleman the
SZDSZ put pressure on poor Jozsi Hollosi. It doesn't even occur to them that
Hollosi just might have gotten tired of such articles as the article on
"Easter week" which was outright stomach turning. Or that the SZDSZ or the
Hungarian government has other business to attend than following the nasty
exchanges of a few maniacs. Or that Forbes is available in Hungary as well
and that about half a million Hungarians can read English and discuss the
article to their hearts' content.
        But to return to the problem of falsification of history it is
relatively easy for countries which had been invaded by Germany during the
war, including Austria. The Germans had no one else to blame.
        Eva

At 08:33 PM 4/1/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote in answer to Zoli Fekete:

>> that doesn't hold them back from assuming that, say, the lifestyle of
>> Gipsies must not have changed in half a century or else some Hungarians
>> could not possibly harbor prejudice against them (to cite just one bizarre
>> example from this thread)...
>>
>> --
>Say just this again?

        I assume that Zoli means that the Gypsies are no longer a nomadic
people, and I think that he is right.
        Eva