In article >, ! says...

>This is what the communists spread.  The Hungarian revolution was
>absolutely spontaneous.  It started with a peaceful march.  When one
>group demonstrated at the radio, the AVO shot into the crowd.  The
>regular army as well as the regular police supported the demonstrator -
>that how they got their weapons in the beginning.  The intellectual
>preparation was done by disillusioned, former communist writers and
>journalists.

[published material quoted for critical and fair use]
According to the newspaper article, Hungarian students were recruited
by MI6 in the early 50s to gather intelligence on Soviet activity in
Hungary. One of these recruits, a Paul Gorka, is quoted: *In due course
we received coded messages from Vienna asking us for information about
Russian troop movements...We replied with information written in invisible
ink in innocuous letters to special addresses*. Gorka's group were caught.
Also quoted is Laszlo Regeczy-Nagy, the President of the Committee for
Historical Justice, said: *There were thousands of Hungarians living in
Austria at the time and some were undoubtedly organised and trained by
the British*, but believes that foreign influence on the events of 1956
was modest. Michael Smith (author of the book) isw quoted: *The officers
I spoke to said there was an intention to cause an uprising in Hungary*...
but added, *..There is no evidence that this was specifically sparked by
MI6 because there was another series of events*.

The last quote would seem to acknowledge the spontaneity of the events,
OTOH other remarks suggest that those events were not a complete surprise
to certain people. Of course, it is possible that some individuals are
simply making capital out of the anniversary and exaggerating the
importance of any British activities prior to the uprising, but if
there were secret liaisons it would be interesting to know just how
much was engineered behind the scenes.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC

In article >,  says...
>Dear Listers:
>Has anyone read or re-read recently James A. Michener's
>"The Bridge at Andau," a splendid little book on the
>Hungarian Revolution of 1956 originally published in
>March, 1957. I find the book to be remarkably accurate.
>More or less everything in it coincides with the way
>I myself remember things.

Virtually all the Hungarians I know (who can read English) have read it.
It is a great read and informative too. Nice to know that its accuracy
has been corroborated by '56ers.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC

I'm looking for the spelling of the city my family is from. My
grandfather tells me it is Poljana, but he is not sure of the spelling.
He believes it is now part of the Ukraine. If anyone could help me out
with the spelling or any other information, I'd appreciate it.

-Becky

In article >,
 says...
>I read much of Szasz' works many years ago while I was working as a
>"housekeeper" (cleaner) at the Douglas Hospital in Verdun, Quebec.  I was
>drawn to his work because my academic interest was about political power
>and control.  His writings were fresh and very original, and I enjoyed them
>very much.  I also agreed with his views.  The Douglas Hospital is a
>psychiatric institute and most of Szasz' criticism of psychiatry resonated
>up and down the hallways of the buildings.
>
>I was shown one of the pavilions that was emptied of homosexuals in 1969
>when Canadian law decriminalized homosexuality.  I saw an elderly woman
>commit her husband because he had lost control of his bowel movements and
>because he had a nasty habit of talking about the past.  And she didn't
>like either!!  I also saw some physical abuse of patients by staff. How
>could I not agree with Szasz' views and criticisms of psychiatry?
>
>I kept sane that year by also reading Eugene Ionesco.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>"Institutional psychiatry is a continuation of the Inquisition. All that
has
>really changed is the vocabulary and the social style. The vocabulary
>conforms to the intellectual expectations of our age: it is a
>pseudo-medical jargon that parodies the concepts of science. The social
>style conforms to the political expectations of our age: it is a
>pseudo-liberal social movement that parodies the ideals of freedom and
>rationality."
>             Thomas Szasz

Joe, thanks for this poignant posting (it has put Szasz high on my
personal agenda).

Regards

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC

 (Stowewrite) wrote:

>In article >,  (Andrew
>J. Rozsa) writes:
>
>>There is this story I have heard many, many years ago, about a song
>>that was played on radios in the 50s in Budapest. The title was (my
>>memory is not what it used to be) something like "Sad Sunday." The
>>story goes on to tell of dozens of Hungarians who committed suicide
>>the day when the song was played. I wonder if it's a true story or is
>>it one of those 'city myths."
>
>Bandi, I think it may be an urban legend. The version I've heard is that
>Billie Holiday recorded a song in the late 40s called "Blue Monday" which
>then figured as an element in suicides across the U.S. and Europe.
>Goethe's novel "The Sorrows of Young Werther" supposedly had the same
>impact when it was first published.
>Sam Stowe

You and I must be reading the same publications. Tsk, tsk, tsk. :-)
:-)

As with all urban legends, it sounded plausible. Besides Goethe, Camus
and Sartre almost 'did' me in. :-(

Maybe they were all Hungarians, and denied it.


>"Up next on NBC Nightly News, they're highly
>prized by both parties -- soccer moms. Who are
>they? And what do they want?"
>-- NBC Nightly News anchor Tom Brokaw, Oct.
>15, making an ill-considered attempt to practice
>relevant journalism.

This is so wonderful.... only in  America....

Bandi

 (Steven C. Scheer) wrote:


>were near some city where there are lots of Hungarians.
>Oh well . . . Sometimes I miss Hungarians a lot . . .
>
>Sincerely,
>Steven C. Scheer
>

How about a Hungarian by proxy? Call up Cal Robinson. Tell him I sent
you. Betcha he'll meet you at the "Bread Factory."

Bandi

- The Trial -
(procesul memorandistilor)


....The controversy was beginning to widen. We have already seen
that in the year 1891 the Romanian Cultural League was founded
in Bucharest as the direct result of the ill-treatment of the
Romanians north of the Carpathians, and as an answer to the
activities of various Magyar cultural leagues. The main initiative
came from a group of teachers and students at the two
Romanian universities, and the latter circulated a manifesto
which aimed at enlisting foreign opinion on the side of the
non-Magyars.  A no less outspoken "Reply", published by the
magyar students of Budapest, led the younger generation of
Romanians in their turn to abandon the mistaken passivity of
their fathers and to issue, under the title of "The Romanian
Question in Transylvania and in Hungary" a lengthy "Replique",
describing with a great array of detailed information and legal
argument, but often in tactless and provocative language, the
many wrongs and grievances of their race. The only result was
to draw upon their heads a savage sentence from the jury
court of Koloszvar - Aurel Popovici, the student mainly
responsible for the Replique, being sentenced to five years,
and N.Roman, as director of the printing press, to one year's
imprisonment, for incitement against the Magyar nationality.

It was in this sort of atmosphere, and in the view of an
impeding general election that a fresh party conference took
place at Sibiu on 20 January 1892 and resolved the long postponed
memorial to the crown [...] On 1 June a deputation of 300 Romanians
conveyed this "Memorandum" to the Hofburg in Vienna; but not merely
were they not admitted to an audience with Francis Joseph,
but some weeks later the document was returned to them unopened
by the Hungarian premier, Count Szapary, with the remark that
its signatories had no legal right to speak in the name of
"Hungarian citizens of Romanian tongue"!  In July, it is true,
in answer to an interpellation, the minister of Justice, Szilagyi,
admitted the clear constitutional right of all citizens
to petition the crown, even for illegal things, and for a time
the Government wavered in its attitude. But eventually the
chauvinistic current definitely gained the upper hand, and as
meanwhile the rejected document had been printed and made public,
the entire committee of the Romanian National Party was brought
to trial for "incitement against the Magyar nationality"
incurred in this very petition (7 May 1894).



 Reference:  "A history of the Roumanians,
 from Roman times to the completion of unity"
 by R. W. Seton-Watson. Cambridge [Eng.], The University press, 1934.
 viii, 596 p. XVI pl.(port.,incl.front.)fold.map. 25 cm.

 (George Szaszvari) wrote:

>
>This story has been around for as long as I can remember. There is an
>extremely melancholic love song by the Greek singer Haris Alexiouy (f)
>which used to have a devastating effect on me (untypical for Greek music
>I've heard which usually has the unique charm of being both happy and sad
>at the same time! But that Haris Alexiouy one...it's a killer :-))
>Obviously *agapi* is in the title, but I can't remember the rest; I'd
>like to obtain it on tape or CD if I can (it was in the Greek charts
>around 1982...any Greeks out there who might know the title and can tell
>me where I can get it???)

This will be my prompt to write to a childhood friend, who now lives
in Athens. Will let you know. Unfortunately, he has not been the same
since he got married, last year. :-)
>
>>As a behaviorist, I tend to reduce most behaviors to coping styles. As
>>such, suicide would be a lack of ability to cope. The lack of
>>resources, then, psychoanalytically, could be due to flawed ego
>>strength. We don't disagree here, either.
>>
>>But a whole nation?
>
>At the moment I tend to believe it has something to do with the make-up
>of Hungarians...the Foehn effect exacerbating the problem out of control?

Usually, the answers to such complex questions, are, well, complex.

Part of my early training included assessment of suicidal ideation,
versus intent, attempt, etc. If things have not changed since then,
establishing 'lethality' was, at best, an art. Too many darned
variables.

>
>>I think that here, in the States, Seattle has the highest suicide rate
>>among major cities (don't quote me on this). The pissy rain that has a
>>penchant of being one's constant companion there, would, then, have
>>something to do with the suicides.
>>Other than being constantly cold (and hungry), I don't remember much
>>else about the weather in Hungary. OK, in my case, Transylvania. It
>>would be interesting to get some stats on whether more Hungarians kill
>>themselves in Transylvania then, say, Romanians.
>
>Soyka also dicusses various parts of the USA...

I need to check out this Soyka guy, he sounds very erudite.

>
>Yes, I dug up what I have by Frankl and have been looking through it
>again...it's even better than I remember...

Indeed.

>
>>P.S. I do have a negative-ion generating air cleaner in my home
>>office. :-)
>
>Me too! :-)

:-)

Andrew

 (George Szaszvari) wrote:

>In article >,
 says...
>>I read much of Szasz' works many years ago while I was working as a
>>"housekeeper" (cleaner) at the Douglas Hospital in Verdun, Quebec.  I was
>>drawn to his work because my academic interest was about political power
>>and control.  His writings were fresh and very original, and I enjoyed them
>>very much.  I also agreed with his views.  The Douglas Hospital is a
>>psychiatric institute and most of Szasz' criticism of psychiatry resonated
>>up and down the hallways of the buildings.
>>
>>I was shown one of the pavilions that was emptied of homosexuals in 1969
>>when Canadian law decriminalized homosexuality.  I saw an elderly woman
>>commit her husband because he had lost control of his bowel movements and
>>because he had a nasty habit of talking about the past.  And she didn't
>>like either!!  I also saw some physical abuse of patients by staff. How
>>could I not agree with Szasz' views and criticisms of psychiatry?
>>
>>I kept sane that year by also reading Eugene Ionesco.
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>>
>>"Institutional psychiatry is a continuation of the Inquisition. All that
>has
>>really changed is the vocabulary and the social style. The vocabulary
>>conforms to the intellectual expectations of our age: it is a
>>pseudo-medical jargon that parodies the concepts of science. The social
>>style conforms to the political expectations of our age: it is a
>>pseudo-liberal social movement that parodies the ideals of freedom and
>>rationality."
>>             Thomas Szasz
>
>Joe, thanks for this poignant posting (it has put Szasz high on my
>personal agenda).
>
>Regards
>
>--
>George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
>Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC
>

Both "The Manufacture of Madness" and "The Myth of Mental Illness" are
gems. I wonder, why would our (prolific) nation would also  have such
an out-of-proprotion number of world-reknown  psychiatrists and
psychologists: Szondi,  Angyal, Ferenczi, Boszormenyi-Nagy,
Csikszentmihalyi, etc.

kate sulzer > wrote:

>No, it is called "Gloomy Sunday." Sinead O'Connor and Billie Holliday both
>do beautiful versions of it. I've heard the same myth about Hungarians
>committing suicide when it is performed.

Darn.... I was going to write pay bills, instead, now I will HAVE to
listen to Billie Holiday. You are a bad influence. :-)

Bandi

At 08:37 PM 10/23/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote:
(And neglects to mention the University
>of Pecs, founded in the 14. century by Lajos the Great.)

        And lasted, if I remember correctly 14 years. The rest doesn't
deserve comment.

                Eva Balogh

At 11:09 PM 10/23/96 GMT, Agnes wrote:

>Eva, don't you remember Sinkovits reciting the
>Talpra Magyar?  And everybody reciting the chorus: eskuszunk, eskuszunk,
>hogy rabok tovabb nem leszunk?  I still get goose pimps (is that the
>right word?) when I think of it!  After Nagy Imre spoke, I went home too.

        Of course, I remember. Actually I just looked at a photo (in a
collection called *Remember Hungary,* depicting exactly that scene.

        By the way, I am still wondering how large that crowd was in fron
the the parliament building. We were so tightly packed in that it was
difficult to move and if you were in the middle of the crowd you couldn't
leave even if you wanted to. I'm sure that it had to be over 100,000.

        Eva Balogh

There is also an old song called I am going to the Cemetary (Elmegyek a
Temetobe) song made extra famous for Hungarians by a lady (whose name
escapes me at the momement) who sang this really morbid song about dying
while she was on her deathbed.

I have heard it several times and every time I heard it and saw others
(especially the older Hungarians) break down in tears and cry. It is a
heart wrenching song that can really make you want to die!

On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, George Szaszvari wrote:

<SNIP>
> The last quote would seem to acknowledge the spontaneity of the events,
> OTOH other remarks suggest that those events were not a complete surprise
> to certain people. Of course, it is possible that some individuals are
> simply making capital out of the anniversary and exaggerating the
> importance of any British activities prior to the uprising, but if
> there were secret liaisons it would be interesting to know just how
> much was engineered behind the scenes.


++++++
While when I was there I was relatively young, I would have to agree with
the spontaneity of the event. In fact it was beleived that by having a
sympathy movement with similar movement in Poland that we could be
collectively more effective in removing the choke.  I for one do not
subscribe to the theory that it was well organized (by British
Intelligence or anyone else). It seemed to just flow out after the fall
of Stalin, etc. It was just one of those things where at the time people
felt that was the right thing to do.

There were of course expectations that the West would aid us and the
whole Eastern block by all means, short of war.  This is important, in that
many Hungarians would have been quite satisfied with even an offcial
recognition of the Nagy government.   Needless to say WE were all
disappointed at the support obtained.

Unfortunately, this is the same type of support we are getting re:NATO .

Peter Soltesz

All this opinion exchange on suicide in Hungary is way beside the mark.
Suicide is caused by depression, true enough, But depression can be
manic-depression, which will also cause suicide, but is not necessarily
caused by particular events traumatizing an individual, rather by genetic
factors.  In the Hungarian case, we are not talking about that.  Rather, we
are talking of actual mostly recurring events and situations, in which an
individual or a nation is totally impotent.  When the Nazis came and did
everything to eliminate the Jews, the Jews would have totally justified to
be depressed.  In most cases, there was nothing they could do about it, and
they went like lambs to the slaughter, which was a way of committing
suicide, except that due to their religious indoctrination they were
satisfied, that the Nazis will do anyway what they would not do by their
own hands.  In Hungary, for the last five hundred years life became totally
worthless.  Except for the privileged, who could maneuver themselves into
positions where survival was possible, the rest of the people were
permanently doomed.  Do you seriously think, that a Teleki committed
suicide because the Foehn?  As far as I know, the Foehn is mainly felt in
the Karst region of what is now, or was until recently Yugoslavia.  Did
Dobozi kill his wife and died himself because of the Foehn?  Life in
Hungary is just as hopeless as it was under the Communists, or the Nazis,
or the Habsburgs, or the Turks, etc..
So, lets go back to depression.  It has now been scientifically
demonstrated, that there is a direct connection between intelligence,
creativeness, and depression.  Here, in America, who hasn't seen the
graffiti-like poster: If you don't panic, you just don't understand?  Isn't
that clear enough?  Few Hungarians suffer from religious dogma telling them
that they won't go to Heaven, or Nirvana, or Paradise, or whatever
fantastic after life reward, if they commit suicide.  No.  They are
intelligent enough to understand when it's over, or not even worth
beginning.  Habsburgs, Horthy, Sz=E1lasi, R=E1kosi, Horn and Lantos, which o=
ne
is worth living for?  The will of the Hungarian is to be independent, and
live in a country which makes living worth while.  If this is stymied every
step of the way, he gets depressed, and so on.  It's more than what I can
say for Americans, who, if they would be intelligent enough to understand,
would scamper into the ocean like lemmings.
Sure I am still here after 82 years.  So-and-so could say that I can cope.
But maybe I am just stupid.

If you find a way to make life worth while, live by all means.  This is the
instinct that keeps us going, but sometimes the instinct of survival is
conquered by intelligence.  That's what makes humanity humanity, no?

Karoly

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:17:04 -0400, "Peter I. Hidas"
> wrote:

>22 October 1956
>
>At the Bellye castle in Yugoslavia the Hungarian delegation concludes its
>mission. A statement on the discussions is prepared by the two parties for
>publication the following day.
>
>Students are at public rallies in Budapest, Szeged, Miskolc, Pecs and
>Sopron. They all decide to join MEFESZ. At the Engineering Faculty the
>students are discussing their demands. They formulate 16 points. They
>demand the democratization of the communist party, the formation of a new
>government under the premiership of Imre Nagy, the establishment of a
>multi-party system, economic reforms, the reform of the judiciary, the
>restoration of national holidays and symbols, freedom of information and
>public trials for the Hungarian Stalinist leaders. A street demonstration
>is planned for the next day, 23 October 1956.
>
>The executive of the Petofi Circle suggests a meeting of the Central
>Committee of the communist party to expell Rakosi and to include Imre Nagy
>among its members.
>
>At Diosgyor at the DIMAVAG factory 2,000 workers submit a written demand
>for an open party debate on the problems of the day.


Mr. Hidas,

I remeber the days when my grandma used to take me to the campsite
where the people were fenced with the barbwire. She would bring them
oranges and food, and they spoke hungarian. I was only six then, and I
disliked the language - it was too mellow for me.

It took place in the town of Eszek, not too far from the Belley castle
that you mention in your write-up.

It would be interesting for me now, to get more facts on the involment
of Yugoslavia in the events of 1956. I'm sure you'll have the answer.

Regards,

Philanthropist

On Wed, 23 Oct 1996 23:14:28 -0400, Becky Warren
> wrote:

>I'm looking for the spelling of the city my family is from. My
>grandfather tells me it is Poljana, but he is not sure of the spelling.
>He believes it is now part of the Ukraine. If anyone could help me out
>with the spelling or any other information, I'd appreciate it.
>
>-Becky

Hi Becky,

As far as spelling is concerned, "poljana" is spelled correctly, and
the meaning of the noun is - the meadow. The language is croatian or
serbian.

As to where that place is now, no idea. Try Ukrainian newsgroups.

Philanthropist

Since you mentioned "Gloomy Sunday" . . .

I haven't been following every message, so hope I'm not repeating
something already stated.  But since the song came up, you'll also find it
in "Schindler's List," both the book and movie.  In the book it's
mentioned directly: two violinists were commanded to play for a Nazi
officer.  Since they hated him, they decided to play "Gloomy Sunday,"
which had a suicidal effect on a lot of people.  Sure enough, about half
an hour after they played it, he killed himself.  (This is from memory, I
may have gotten the details out of place, but the gist of it is definitely
correct.)

As for the movie, the title "Gloomy Sunday" isn't mentioned, but there's a
scene where the violinists are playing.  I thought, that song sounds very
familiar.  And then (having listened to Billie Holiday's song for years),
I remembered.

So the Hungarian influence goes far and wide.  Too bad this one's about
suicide.  (Someone wrote that such a song could *only* have been written
by a Hungarian!)

And now for a question, to add to the suicide debate.  In a recent local
paper in Seattle, a Hungarian was profiled who defected from Hungary in
1977 (at age 17) and is now a police officer in Seattle.  The reporter's
description:

"Zana is charming, exuberant, cheerful, dazzling, optimistic, shrewd,
aggressive and urbane.  It's hard to believe he's actually a police
officer."

Now isn't that description very typical of Hungarians?  That's how the
Hungarian is known throughout the world.  So my question: why then is the
suicide rate so high?  Is the discrepancy between style and substance--the
way Hungarians would like to live in the world versus the way the world
"really is"--so great that it drives people to destruction?  There's a
line in a book on Hungary in the '30s that, it says, typified a lot of
Hungarians then: "If only we could afford to live the way we do."  (Of
course, that's *very* true of Americans today as well!)

Anyway, I'm just mulling it all over.  Mulling keeps me so busy I don't
have time to kill myself.

Regds,
Burian

Does anybody know how bad your eyes have to be before the Hungarian army will
reject you?

                        The Gardener

24 October 1956

During the night the Military Committee of the Politburo organizes armed
units for the defeat of the revolution. The Partisan Division of the MOHOSZ
(Hungarian Volunteer Defence League) is armed.

The Radio is under siege. Many are killed and wounded on both sides. In the
early morning the freedom fighters, civilians and soldiers, take the Radio,
execute the defenders' commander but let the soldiers and officers (AVH,
army  and police) go free. The wounded are taken to a hospital.  Radio
broadcasting switched to a new location.

At 8:13 a.m. the Hungarian Radio announces that Erno Gero remains first
secretary of the party. The new prime minister is Imre Nagy. Janos Kadar
becomes one of the secretaries of theCentral Committee. Curfew is ordered
along with a state of emergency (martial law). Nagy promises amnesty for
those who lay down weapons by 2:00p.m. This deadline is repeated extended.
Nobody is at work; the schools are closed. The trains are still running and
there is no interruption in the electricity and water supply. Foodstores
open for a few hours only.

There are soviet units, mainly tanks and armored vehicles, in different
parts of the capital fighting the freedom fighters.

Under the leadership of a Hungarian infantry major 120 freedom fighters,
soldiers and civilians, besiege a building of the Ministry of Interior
(Roosevelt Square) which is defended by by policemen, soldiers, AVH men and
former partisans. There are many dead and wounded. The attack is
unsuccessful and many of the attackers are captured. The freedom fighters
also fail to take the Red Star printing plant, the artillery school, the
Ministry of Defence and the Charles Robert Circle army barracks. They are
able to penetrate the Bem  and the Beloiannis barracks. Russian tanks are
unable to stop the overrun of the para-military headquarters on the island
of Csepel.

The Ministry of Defence organizes the counter-revolution.The city is
divided into military districts and patrols are sent out to each to defeat
the freedom fighters. Fighting is particularly heavy around the Radio. The
National Museum is on fire.

The revolutionaries establish strong points  at Szena Square, Baross
Square, Corvin Theatre, Mester and Tuzolto Streets,and  the Boraros and
Moricz Zsigmond squares. In the suburbs there are two centres, one in
Csepel and the other in Ujpest.

At 12:10 Imre Nagy addresses the people on the radio. Along with well-known
public figures asked for the end of fighting and promises a new government
program.In the evening Janos Kadar speaks on the radio condemning the
uprising as a reactionary counter-revolution.

In the United Electric factory the first workers' council is established.

There are 250 persons dead to date as a result of the fightings. Ninety of
them  fell in the 8th district of Budapest.

There are major demonstrations in many Hungarian towns (Debrecen, Gyor,
Kecskemet, Miskolc, Pecs, etc.). The AVH arrests many. The demonstrators
are fired upon at various places. In Gyor the political prisoners are
liberated by the crowd.

More Red Army units move into Hungary. Suslov and Mikoyan arrive in Budapest.

In Poland the rebels of Poznan are freed. Cardinal Wiszynsky is re-instated
and Gomulka announces the withdrawal of Soviet army units to their bases.

On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Lajos MONOKI wrote:

> >National Song by Peto"fi Sa'ndor
> >
> >Talpra Magyar, your country calls!
> >the time for now or never falls!
> >Are we live as slaves or free?
> >Choose one! this is your destiny!
> >Bu the God of all the Magyars,
> >we swear,
> >we swear never again the chains
> >to bear!
> >
> >Remember.                (Sz.Z)
> >
>
> Jajj!!
>
> Szegeny Petofi forog a sirjaban!
>
> Ej what's the stone, chiken mother
> Are you living in the room here?
>
> Bocs, de erre felenk csak azt mondjak: Bunko vagy Buxley!
>
>
> ******************************
> *       Lajos Monoki         *
> *  NCR Hungary - CSS Szeged  *
> * e-mail: *
> *  Tel/Fax: +36-62-434101    *
> *    Mobil: +36-30-584523    *
> ******************************
>
>
> "Is all that we see or seem
> But a dream within a dream?"
>            Edgar Allan Poe
>
The translator is surely straight from Bumford...

Louis Elteto

 wrote:

> Firstly, prior to 1989, people born after the
> revolution had only one available explanation of the events, namely the one
> offered by communist historians. This was taught in schools, and this was wha
t
> you could read in history books.

This red herring of "there was no alternative information available to
Hungarians before 1989" keeps appearing as a lame attempt to exlain various
things, despite its ridiculousness.

First, people in Hungary did talk to each other, and did so rather freely.
1956 was discussed probably even more than other events, at least in the
circles where I was moving.

Second, many Hungarians were listening to foreign radio stations (Radio Free
Europe and the Hungarian services of Voice of America, BBC, Deutsche Welle,
etc.), and not merely for the rock music.  These stations had more than
adequate coverage of 1956.

Third, there was such cynicism among Hungarians of what was preached
officially that many (most ?) people automatically took it for granted that
the direct opposite of the official stand was true in everything.  In the
case of 1956, this was conveniently achieved by dropping the "counter"
off in "counter-revolution".  Even though Pozsgay termed 1956 a "popular
uprising" and some people are pushing the "freedom fight" term, most
Hungarians term 1956 a "revolution": they did not pick this up since
1989.

So, either the scales have fallen off your eyes only in 1989 or you are
having us on.

George Antony

>National Song by Peto"fi Sa'ndor
>
>Talpra Magyar, your country calls!
>the time for now or never falls!
>Are we live as slaves or free?
>Choose one! this is your destiny!
>Bu the God of all the Magyars,
>we swear,
>we swear never again the chains
>to bear!
>
>Remember.                (Sz.Z)
>

Jajj!!

Szegeny Petofi forog a sirjaban!

Ej what's the stone, chiken mother
Are you living in the room here?

Bocs, de erre felenk csak azt mondjak: Bunko vagy Buxley!


******************************
*       Lajos Monoki         *
*  NCR Hungary - CSS Szeged  *
* e-mail: *
*  Tel/Fax: +36-62-434101    *
*    Mobil: +36-30-584523    *
******************************


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"
           Edgar Allan Poe

Sorry for not signing my article "re:1956". Actually, I simply forgot to do so.
I am new to UseNet, and had some technical problem on my mind. So, here's my
name and e-mail address:

Zoltan Arva-Toth

In article >, "Frank A. Aycock, Ph.D."
> writes:
>
> HUNGARIAN POLL SHOWS AMBIGUOUS ATTITUDES TOWARD 1956 UPRISING. The[B
> majority of 1,854 respondents in a recent Teledirect poll on the 1956
> uprising expressed no opinion on the events of 40 years ago, Magyar
> Hirlap reported on 21 October. Of the 48% who gave an opinion, most
> had only a superficial knowledge of the events and figures involved,
> the poll found. Only 10% said the anniversary of the uprising should
> be Hungary's most important national holiday, while 55% selected 15
> March (the anniversary of the failed 1848 revolution). According to
> 43% of respondents, the events of 1956 were a revolution, while 16%
> described them as a fight for freedom and 10% each as a popular
> uprising and as a counter-revolution. -- Ben Slay
> Frank A. Aycock, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Communication
> Appalachian State University
> Boone, NC 28608 U.S.A.
> Fax: (704) 262-2543
> E-Mail: 

To tell you the truth, Frank, the results do not surprise me at all. I will try
to summarize the possible causes. Firstly, prior to 1989, people born after the
revolution had only one available explanation of the events, namely the one
offered by communist historians. This was taught in schools, and this was what
you could read in history books. Then, early in 1989, reform-communist Imre
Pozsgay said publicly that the events of 1956 had actually been a popular
uprising. This made his communist comrades react angrily, but finally the
leader of the party, the late Karoly Grosz had to accept the term. (At first,
the official version was that the events started as a popular uprising and
turned into counter-revolution later on. However, this did not satisfy the
leaders of the opposition, who had become braver and more outspoken after the
 forementioned
utterance by Pozsgay).  After the elections of 1990, Paliament passed a bill
stating that in 1956 a revolution broke out, which led to a fight for freedom.
Now you can see where all this confusion originates from.

In 1989, everyone was excited by the issue of 1956. People were hungry for true
information. But instead of getting good history books explaining the events in
their historical context (such as Ferenc (Francois) Fejto: The History of
People's Democracies, banned in Hungary under communism, and, sadly, published
as late as 1991), people got only memoirs of former revolutionaries. These are
excellent sources for a historian, but they only confused the general public.
This is not surprising: such sources are subjective, naturally biased, and tell
you only fractions of the whole story. Consequently, young people who failed to
understand the events from these sources turned away from 1956. Good history
books came too late. (Also, most of us grew tired of, and were digusted by, the
(verbal) fight between various groups of former revolutionaries.)

I think the situation is slowly getting better now. Forty years after the
revolution and 6-8 years after the fall of communism, the emotional factor is
not as important as it used to be. Maybe one day the whole nation will be able
to celebrate the anniversary of the events of 1956 together. Let it be.

Well, it is Poiana if in Romania, Poljana if either in the Ukraine or
Slovakia. Actually, the Carpathian basin is infested with this name,
really a multitude of places (second only to "Lehota") are called like
this, meaning simply "field".Try to determine an adjective for this
village name to identify the place!