I am soliciting people to fill out a form that will be the basis of my
mother's thesis.  Her subject is the different ways countries around the
world are planning and building their information infrastructure. If you
understand the initiatives toward building your country's information
infrastructure we would appreciate you taking the time to fill out our
short survey.  The survey can be found at http://www.hotwhere.com under
the
Global Telecommunications Survey link.

Thanks for your input.
Pat Patterson

I would love to have the family name "JOSVAI" investigated, michael
josvai to be precise or barbara balas born in 1800's will get some
dates later...what ships did people use to come to usa?  what was
main reason for fleeing hungary prior to WWII..i presume communism
student in search

e mail addresses for hungarian university (s) with english speaking
students?  anyone have an address?

If you have access to WWW try http://www.hungary.com.  Full of information
that you can use.  Also try http://www.hix.com.  Find in the archive FAQ of
Hungarian Electronic Resources.  Good luck.  Alex

On 26 Sep 1996 07:09:41 -0400,  (Stowewrite) wrote:

>In article >, 
>(Andrew Rszsa) writes:
>
>>I love you, man!
>>
>>Bandi
>
>Attaboy! There's the spirit!
>Sam Stowe

just emulating the master... :-))

(yours had me howling with laughter...just shows you: one is never too
old to learn).

Andrew
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

I think if the database is  available through the Net it would be of interest
to many of us.  If you are able to find out how to access it please post it .
 Thanks.  Alex

**********************************************************************

It's party time!

Young Hungarians' and Friends' Picnic in Washington, DC

Hungarian students and young professionals in the Washington, DC
Metropolitan Area cordially invite you and your friends to our annual
picnic.  Join us for an afternoon of fun, food, music and sports. (if you
would like to play soccer or volleyball, please, dress appropriately)

Date & Time: October 5, 1996, Saturday, 1:00 p.m.
Place: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC, outside of the Hungarian Embassy,
in case of rain the picnic will take place in the building of the
Hungarian Embassy (metro accessible)

Directions to Rock Creek Park Picnic Area - Grove # 1:

Take the Red Line of the metro to the Van Ness - UDC station, exit the
station, the escalators lead up to Connecticut Avenue.  Head South towards
downtown on Connecticut.  Pass Van Ness Street and traffic light.  At the
next traffic light turn left on to Tilden Street.  Head all the way down
on Tilden, but before you come across a little bridge and traffic light,
turn right.  ( To your left you will see The Rock Creek Gallery and the
Pierce Mill.  To your right you will find the Hungarian Embassy, the field
is across from it.)

The picnic is free. However, if you would like to bring your favorite
dish, please do so. (Hamburgers, hot dogs, veggie dogs, salads and drinks
will be provided.)

If you would like to come send mail to: 
or check out our web page for up-to-date information and maps at:
http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/

This picnic is sponsored by
the Hungarian Embassy in Washington, D.C.,
the American Hungarian Educators' Association and
the UMCP Hungarian American Association.

**********************************************************************

Buli van!

Washingtoni magyar fiatalok szeretettel meghivnak Teged es Barataid eves
piknikjukre. Lesz etel, ital, zene es sport ( ha szeretnel focizni
vagy roplabdazni, hozzal megfelelo ruhazatot).

Mikor: 1996. oktober 5., szombat, 1:00
Hol: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC, a Magyar Nagykovetseg epulete
mellett, eso eseten a Magyar Nagykovetseg epuleteben (metro a kozelben)

A metro piros vonalan menj el a Van Ness - UDC megalloig.  Itt ha felmesz
indulj el a Connecticut Avenue-n a belvaros fele (delre). Menj el  Van
Ness utcai keresztezodes es egy kozlekedesi lampa mellett, a kovetkezo
kozlekedesi lampanal fordulj balra a Tilden Street-re. Ezen menj vegig, de
mielott elernel egy kis hidat es egy kozlekedesi lampat fordulj jobbra.
(A bal oldalon a Rock Creek Gallery es a Pierce Mill van, a jobb oldalon
pedig a Magyar Nagykovetseg, a piknik a Nagykovetseggel szemben lesz.)

A piknik ingyenes, de hozhatsz kedvenc eteledbol/kajadbol/harapnivalodbol.
(Lesz hamburger, hot dog, vegetarianus etelek, salatak es (udito)italok.)

Ha szeretnel jonni, legyszives kuldj egy emailt a kovetkezo cimre:
email:  

Friss informaciok es terkepek a piknik web oldalan talalhatoak:
www:  http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/

Ez a piknik nem jonne letre a
washingtoni Magyar Nagykovetseg,
az Amerikai Magyar Tanarok Egyesulete es
a Maryland-i Egyetem Magyar Amerikai Diakszovetsegenek
segitsege nelkul.
**********************************************************************

.

S or G Farkas ) wrote:
: My mother used to roast the peppers as follows (I do it rarely the same way

Thanks for the explicit description of the pepper roaster and your
mother's technique. I am planning to design and build a roaster over the
winter and will put that description with the research.

Generally, I have found that nice red pimento peppers are the best for
roasting though any pile of peppers can bring great roasted joy. One
reason for pimento success is that they are very thick-walled and
thick-skinned, as well as sweet. These attributes allow a fairly quick
and high heat roasting process without making the pepper walls
disintegrate. It always amazes me how absolutely burned a pimento can
appear before pealing and how perfect it really is under the thin
charcoal skin after peeling.

I have two methods for enjoying roasted peppers here, perfected over
these last couple of years as my sweet red varieties proliferate. These
are both small batch techniques and are suitable for completing during
the normal course of perparing dinner.

Here is my roast-and-peel technique:
- Gather a few peppers of similar wall thickness, red and fresh
- Wash and cut stems off
- Roast over fairly high open flame, turning and standing them on the
stem end to consistently cook and burn outside surfaces. They should
appear very burned. (This cooking process works fine on an outside grill
though I normally do it on a cooktop on the kitchen range. To do this make
sure you have an efficient, outside-venting exhaust fan. I also fashioned
a small grill from a piece I found at the hardware store; it is about
eight inches in diameter and fits over the cooktop.)
- Once the peppers look evenly burned and somewhat soft remove them from the
heat and put them in a paper grocery store bag. Roll the bag up and set
it aside for about twenty minutes to steam and moisten the crusty skins.
This makes it much easier to remove the skins. (Thanks to an Italian
friend for that one.)
- Using a serrated tomato knife and fork to control the pieces, scrape
off the black burned 'scale' and discard. Leave a little of the black
scale in with the peppers for color and taste.
- Slice out the stem piece and discard it along with the seeds.
- Once you have the batch skinned in this manner slice the entire pile at
once with a large knife and place them on a plate.
- Lightly salt them and cover with saran plastic cooking wrap. These cool
off rapidly so you may need a minute or so of microwave re-heating just
before serving if you want them warm.
- Enjoy! This does produce beautiful results.

I will have to share the skillet method next time as I am out of time
just now. Luckily it is simpler.

Steve Tischer

fax: 404-982-7244

At 04:43 PM 9/26/96 -0600, Karoly Csipkay wrote:
>Are Americans dumb?
>
>A few years ago Frost interviewed Gore Vidal. Vidal was aked the above
>question. Vidal's answer:
>No, Americans are no dumber than anybody else. They are uneducated.
>
>Karoly

        I am getting less and less sure of that, by the way. The fact is
that public education is getting worse everywhere in Europe as well,
including Hungary.

        Eva Balogh

At 9:24 PM 9/26/96, SUZI wrote:
>I would love to have the family name "JOSVAI" investigated, michael
>josvai to be precise or barbara balas born in 1800's will get some
>dates later...what ships did people use to come to usa?  what was
>main reason for fleeing hungary prior to WWII..i presume communism
>student in search

Take a look at Julianna Puskas, KIVANDOLO MAGYAROK AZ EGYESULT ALLAMOKBAN
1880-1940. Budapest: Akademiai, 1982. For list of immigrants you should try
the National Archives in Washington (accessible on the Internet).

Peter I. Hidas
Montreal

DAY FIVE



Saturday, 27 October 1956.
Nagy broadened his cabinet by bringing in Bela Kovacs and Zoltan Tildy of
the Smallholder's Party, but Politburo remained predominantly communist.
=46ighting continued. Soviet reinforcements moved in from Roumania.
Calendar of Events in Hungary prepared by the staff of the Department of
External Affairs for use in connection with the Special Session of the
Canadian House of Commons: November 26, 1956.(1)


        On this day at a private meeting in Paris the representatives of
the United Kingdom, France and the US informed the members of the NATO
Council that their governments had agreed in principle to raising  before
the Security Council the question of Soviet military action in the
Hungarian uprising.  The Council was unanimous in agreeing that NATO should
now take no action whatsoever on this issue, beyond that members keep each
other informed. Paul Henri Spaak of Belgium suggested that "Third-World"
leaders be asked to intervene with the Soviet authorities but the Council
rejected this proposal.(2) Several factors caused major distractions from
the events in Hungary. The American election campaign was in progress.
Israeli, French and British military authorities were in the process of
planning and organizing the invasion of Egypt. Furthermore,  the uncertain
political situation in Hungary dictated a cautious great power attitude
towards Hungary.

        Telegrams of concerned Canadian-Hungarians and other citizens and
their organizations demanding action on behalf of the Hungarian
revolutionaries were arriving at the Ottawa ministries. The Council of
Canadian Hungarian Churches and Societies of Manitoba telegraphed the prime
minister:

 ...we beg you and the Canadian government to intervene and protest at the
USSR government against the illegal Soviet domination in Hungary and
request to intervene with UN to protest right of a member for
independence...(3)

 The Canadian Croatian Club also sent a telgram. The telegram of another
East European emigr=E9 association read: "In unity with our Hungarian
brothers whose country was subjected to the criminal actions of Soviet
imperialism, all member nations of the Mutual Cooperation League demand
your help for the liberation of all nations enslaved by communism".(4)
Meanwhile, in Montreal the large Hungarian community began a day of
feverish activity. A requiem mass was celebrated at the Church of Our Lady
of Hungary in memory of those who fell in the anti-Soviet rebellion. The
priest urged his parishioners to do everything humanly possible to help the
victims. A blood-drive was initiated.  Militant Hungarian-Canadians started
to organize a legion to fight the Russians in Hungary. According to The
Montreal Star's reporter, close to 100 persons signed up on that day.

        By noon Pearson was ready to inform the public and an anxious
Hungarian delegation of his thoughts concerning events in Budapest. He
addressed the members of the Rotary Club in Toronto. "In Hungary," he
began,  "it is hard to know what is going on behind the smoke and fire of
the popular uprising which is being fought out to the end with all the
fierce pride and reckless courage for which the Hungarian people are
famous. But it is clear that here too [as in Poland] the hunger for
freedom, personal and national, has fired a people's demand for the
breaking of the shackles that bound the country to Moscow." After praising
the heroic and patriotic students and workers of Budapest he continued:
"...the effect of whatever happens will surely not be lost on the
uncommitted countries whom the Russians have been wooing in recent
months..." "It would be naive to imagine that the Moscovite Empire is
already crumbling..." Nagy said he is building national communism. Can
national communism and the Russians live side by side? "We can only hope
that they will...What can we do in Canada, and in other free countries;
what should we do in such a situation? This is a question which I know
presents itself with a special, an agonizing urgency to Canadians of Polish
and Hungarian descent; citizens of our country who, though Canadians first
in loyalty and devotion, cannot forget their homelands; and cannot help but
be deeply stirred by the heroism and the tragedy of what is going on there
now." He rejoiced in seeing  cracks in the Iron Curtain, but, he said,
"...our first concern must be for the present position of the peoples
involved...Rash and ill-judged foreign intervention or interference from
the West, however well intentioned, would not help these Poles and
Hungarians...It might indeed hurt them by provoking a cruel and powerful
reaction from those who may be waiting for an opportunity to move in and
destroy these new liberating and national forces, using the excuse of
foreign threats or interference from our side. But we can let the people of
these nations...know that we are following with deep and strong admiration
their struggle...We can also express our condemnation and abhorrence of
brutal and repressive measures taken against them, especially by foreign
forces from Russia." The US consulted Canada and others about bringing the
issue to the Security Council. "The view of the Canadian government is that
this should be done...in order to prevent further bloodshed and to enable
Hungary [to] choose its own course as a new member of the United Nations."
Russia should work for this too. "The force of world opinion must be
mobilized in favour of the forces of national freedom in these countries
and against foreign intervention, and foreign domination. The United
Nations is where this should be and can be done." Communists and fellow
travellers in Canada should take a second look. The West must be united and
unprovocative.(5)

        Pearson delivered two messages. Canadian-Hungarians were told that
their people were famous, proud, fierce and courageous. The minister,
however, spoke against intervention. He reassured the public, generally
anti-Soviet and anti-Communist,  that no risks would be taken. He accused
the Red Army of brutality, and asked Moscow to mend its way to please
international public opinion which wanted peace and fair treatment for the
Hungarians.  Canada offered sympathy without action.

        Following the delivery of his speech Pearson met a group of
Canadian-Hungarians. A six-man delegation asked him "to compel the Soviet
government to withdraw its troops from Hungarian soil". The petitioners
asked that the Canadian Government officially denounce the brutality of the
Soviet armies and provide some medical aid and food supplies to the
Hungarian insurgents. Pearson was encouraging but made no commitment. He
told the delegation that he was  pressing the UN on behalf of the
Hungarians but everyone should beware of "hasty and ill-advised" action.(6)


        In New York the United Nations Security Council was summoned  to
meet  at 4 p.m. EST to consider the Hungarian situation. The president of
the Council issued the call after Britain, France and the United States
requested an urgent meeting to deal with "the situation in Hungary." A
courier from the American delegation handed in the official request at UN
headquarters in the early  afternoon.  Earlier, Spain had protested to the
UN against recent Soviet troop actions in both Hungary and Poland.(7)
        At sundown several hundred Canadians of Hungarian origin gathered
in the Polish War Veterans' Hall in Montreal to hear speakers laud the
rebels' struggle against Soviet oppression. Dr. George Lengv=E1ry, a local
community leader addressing the crowd, demanded that the United Nations
intervene and organize free elections in Hungary.8  In Toronto 3,000
Hungarians marched through city streets to place a wreath at the Cenotaph
to honour their former countrymen killed in Hungary the preceding week. A
requiem mass was celebrated at the St. Elizabeth Church. Eight hundred
Magyars dressed in mourning took part in the solemn ceremony. The more
militant members of the community wanted to give armed support to the
revolutionaries. The Legion of Freedom, a brigade of war veterans and
volunteers, was founded that day. Several hundred strong on paper, the
brigade  opened a recruiting campaign at its headquarters at the Hungarian
Sports Club in Toronto. Eugene T=F6m=F6ry, a retired Hungarian general and
president of the Rakoczy Association, an organization of Hungarian war
veterans, headed the Legion of Freedom.   Initially, the Canadian Hungarian
=46ederation sponsored this Legion. About 100 Hungarians from Montreal
indicated that they also wished to join.  "'The main problem is getting to
Europe,' a spokesman for this group said to a reporter fromThe Montreal
Star. ' Once we get there, we know we'll be able to secure arms.' He said
that Hungarian sources in Ottawa would be contacted in the hope that air
transportation might be arranged."(9)

        The Canadian government could not tolerate the establishment of a
private army to fight a war abroad against a country with which Canada was
at peace. The problem had to be treated delicately since public opinion by
now was pro-Hungarian.

Notes

(1)NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154, Box 47, File H-17-1 (b).

(2) D. Wilgress' telegram from NATO, Permanent Representative to the NATO
Council, Paris, to External Affairs, 27 October 1956, NAC, RG 25,
84-85/150, Box 111, File 8619-40, part 2: from January 2, 1952, to October
31, 1956.

(3)NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154, Box 108, File H-17-1.

(4)Ibid.

(5)NAC, RG 2,  90-91/154, Box 47, File H-17-1 (b); Winnipeg Free Press, 27
October 1956; The Montreal Star, 27 October 1956.

(6)Ibid.; The Globe and Mail, 29 October 1956.

(7)The Montreal Star, 27 October 1956.

(8)The Montreal Star, 29 October 1956.

Peter I. Hidas
Montreal

At 11:14 AM 9/27/96 GMT, Steve Tischer wrote:

<snip>
>- Once the peppers look evenly burned and somewhat soft remove them from the
>heat and put them in a paper grocery store bag. Roll the bag up and set
>it aside for about twenty minutes to steam and moisten the crusty skins.
>This makes it much easier to remove the skins. (Thanks to an Italian
>friend for that one.)

I learned to put the peppers into an airtight container.  It does the same
job as a paper bag only better and faster.

Joe Szalai

In article >,  writes:

>Yes, they were murdered and they were murdered when Hungary was in the
>hands of those germanofils who rejected the values of the Western
>Civilization, ... back in the XIX'c. This will hapen any time
>
>

They were murdered with the active assistance of the Hungarian government.
Remember, the Germans didn't seize control of the country until the
process of rounding Jews up and shipping them off to Auschwitz was already
well underway. Hungary could have resisted the German pressure to hand
over its Jews. It did so successfully for several years. The Danes helped
their Jewish population (admittedly a much smaller percentage of their
total population) escape to Sweden, while the Bulgarians simply refused
point-blank to either turn theirs over to the Nazis for extermination or
to do the job themselves. Thousands of Christian Hungarians risked their
own lives to save those of Jewish neighbors. But thousands more willingly
and eagerly participated in the round-ups.
Sam Stowe

"Baby, will you eat snack crackers wearin'
that, uh, special outfit you bought?"
-- Southern Culture on the Skids, "Camel Walk"

In article >, Peter k Chong
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: Bela Bartok the "chauvinist
>From:  Peter k Chong >
>Date:  26 Sep 1996 03:56:20 GMT
>
 wrote:
>>Judit Frigyes and Peter Laki wrote:
>>
>> > Bela Bartok was a Nationalist -> chauvinist -> antisemite
>>
>>
>>I want opinions from:
>>
>>      Eva, Sam Stowe, Peter I. Hidas, Joe Szalai, Aniko, Jeliko,eorge
>>Szaszvari of Milky Way and all others.
>>
>>
>>Albert Albu
>
>Chauvanist, eh?.... Hmm... How about the Romanian Folk Dances (Roman nipi

>tancok), Dance Suite (Tancszvit), Romanian Dance (Roman tanc), and the
>countless pieces with Romanian, Ukranian, Slovakian, Bulgarian, Turkish
>and Arabic-inspired themes?
>
>Judging by the names of the Bartsk haters, they must be Magyar in name
>only...
>
>Regards
>
>Peter Chong
>
>

Isn't this sweet? You two really must get together for tea sometime. Mr.
Chong, meet our resident schizophrenic -- Mr. Albu. Al, meet Mr. Chong, a
man who judges people he's never met solely on the basis of their last
names. Judging from his own, you might want to tell Mr. Chong how much you
enjoy mah johng and egg rolls. At least I think that's how his brand of
condescension works.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Since when did Bartok become politically incorrect? I'm still
listening to his music, just like I'm still reading Heidegger.

P.S.S. -- God, I'm sorry, Al. You wanted an opinion from me. Okay, here it
is -- you're still a knuckle-dragging lunatic. Let me know if you need
another one.

"Baby, will you eat snack crackers wearin'
that, uh, special outfit you bought?"
-- Southern Culture on the Skids, "Camel Walk"

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>> not end in 1934.
>Really? What do you mean under the expression "national socialism"
>back, e.g. in 1930, a little bit later in 1934, or more later
>during and after the war? I guess, the word has a long story of
>different meanings. After 1956, for example, in Hungary Kadar
>announced the plan of building socialism IN ACCORDANCE TO THE
>NATIONAL SPECIFICS of Hungary, i.e. in a Hungarian way. It was
>"our national way of building socialism". It is just a small piece
>of food for your thinking...


Congratulations, Zoltan. You may be the only college-educated adult in
Christendom at the end of the 20th Century who doesn't know what national
socialism is. You're a regular renaissance man.


>As about Heidegger:
>
>The fact is, that Heidegger discontinued his relationship with
>the hitlerian way of building a new society in Germany in 1934.
>
>> He was also peeved because they did not look to
>> him specifically for intellectual guidance in implementing the new
>> Sonderweg (Special Way) between Russian communism and American
capitalism.
>This comment reveals that Sam does not understand Heidegger and
>the ontological way of thinking at all. That kind of stupid
>statements have a right place in the book of Victor Farias. :-(
>
>Heidegger's philosophy is not a political philosophy. He was an
>ontologist. Ontology is about the understanding of being,
>existence, your role in the world in a general terms, etc. It
>is not an ideology, which can be instrumentalized in political
>acting. Heidegger never wanted to give intellectuel guidance
>to politicians. Never ever. He did not have any business in
>something like that. The only thing he wanted was teaching. And
>when he realized, as early as in 1934, that the Nazis pushed a
>different agenda in his university, he resigned from his post
>as Chancellor of the university.


First of all, it's "intellectual" not "intellectuel." You really are a
block-head, aren't you? Second, Heidegger faithfully carried out the
policy of Gleichsaltung at Heidelburg during his tenure as Chancellor. He
quit after a year or so because he realized that the Nazis weren't likely
to follow his lead. He complained at the time and throughout the remainder
of his life that if only they had listened to him, national socialism
might have been a real winner for Germany.


>
>> Heidegger remained a card-carrying member of the Nazi Party until the
end
>> of the war in 1945.
>That is a thing, you anti-Heideggerians never forget to repeat
>over and over again. Yes, he remained a member. But why? What
>would have happened if he would have refused to pay the
>membership fee? I tell you what would have happened:
>He would have probably been
>1. openly humiliated by the Nazi leadership;
>2. forced to resign his teaching position at the university;
>3. marked as enemy;
>4. his family would have been in danger of losing jobs, etc.
>(Heidegger himself put the emphasis on his family in his later
>explanation of the question. He did not care too much about
>his own personal fate.)


He cared a lot about his own personal fate, particularly his own public
image. He spent the remainder of his life after the war trying to salvage
his reputation without making a clean break with his Nazi past.
>
>A terroristical political system has its plentyful ways to
>punish dissenters. And we Hungarians, exactly know that! It is
>to much easy to talk trash against other people living under
>real dangers, if you who judge them from outside are living
>all of your life in freedom, in a democratic country, without
>any challenge of retorsion.
>
>We know, what happened to people during Rakosi in Hungary, when
>they stepped out of the Communist Party. We know how they lost
>any chance of dignified survival whatsoever. Many of them ended
>up in Recsk and their families in complete despair. Do you know,
>what this single word means to Hungarians: Recsk? Do you have
>the slightest idea? ... And it happened in Hungary.
>
>Now, you answer this question: In which country was the level
>of oppression against its citizens higher, in Germany during
>Hitler or in Hungary during Rakosi?
>                                                     Sz. Zoli
>
>
Easy -- Germany during Hitler. Rakosi wound up imprisoning and executing a
far smaller portion of the population. He didn't raise a huge army and
launch a world war while trying to conquer Europe. He didn't round up
members of a particular ethnic group and try to croak them en masse. And a
significant percentage of his victims were creeps like Rajk who certainly
wouldn't have hesitated to return the favor if the shoe were on the other
foot.

This is getting tiresome, Zoltan. You make a bigger and stupider fool of
yourself with each posting on this topic. Your constant lies about history
and Heidegger's philosophy are pathetic. But, if you wish to continue
shooting yourself in the foot, I'm more than willing to continue loading
the gun for you.
Sam Stowe


"Baby, will you eat snack crackers wearin'
that, uh, special outfit you bought?"
-- Southern Culture on the Skids, "Camel Walk"

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>I have always known that your pal is Victor Farias.
>That's exactly why you don't have any chance to
>get the whole picture.
>                                         Sz. Zoli
>
>

You might want to note that Robert Wolin and I are also mutual
beneficiaries of each others' life insurance policies. Kinda like you and
Istvan Csurka.
Sam Stowe

"Baby, will you eat snack crackers wearin'
that, uh, special outfit you bought?"
-- Southern Culture on the Skids, "Camel Walk"

Stowewrite wrote:
>
> In article >, Zsargo Janos
> > writes:
>
> >Well the expression 'culture' has been used in almost any kind of context
> >here on this list. Would somebody minds explaining me what these guys
> >mean by 'culture'. To me culture means, folk dance, eating habbits,
> religion,
> >customs, etc. I understand that the politics and events can be related to
> >'culture', but I haven't got the ability of so abstract thinking that can
> >relate the Holocaust in Hungary to my definition of hungarian culture or
> >its relation to the 'Europian culture'.
> >
> >J.Zs
>
> It's not all that abstract. That's the problem. Culture corresponds to the
> system of shared beliefs, activities, history, traits and artifacts that
> delineates one group of people from another. Culture does encompass all of
> the things you mentioned. It also provides psychological boundaries for
> self and group identification. I'm sure most of us have heard of  the
> social psychologist Kurt Lewin and his channel theory -- that behavior is
> a function of the interplay between both psychological and
> non-psychological factors. Lewin likened that interplay to a giant river
> delta where the river is constantly cutting new channels to the sea. Seen
> up close from ground level, those changes seem slow and minimal. From a
> mile high in the air, however, we can tell how dramatic they are and how
> fast they occur. Culture, perhaps, is the sum total of our group channels.
> They do change under the impact of historical circumstance, but unless we
> gain some distance from them through critical thought and analysis, we may
> have trouble discerning those channels. And they are very powerful
> determinants for future action. As such, I think studying them carefully
> is worth the effort involved.
> Sam Stowe



Cultures and Civilization

Cultures could exist within or outside civilization. If you
do not accept a value system defined by the past 500 years
you are defying the civilization.

Time, as history that exists in our conscience, gives
semantic meaning to the elements of the visual environment.
The semantic meaning is an expression of the system of values
and measures defined as a civilization. Within civilization,
cultures could coexist. Some of them so crucial that that if
removed will alter the civilization. Others, are not so
important. Without them the civilization could go on to
exist.

The Abstract

An  abstract  element is a fallacy since it cold exist only
outside time. Only devoid of the semantic manning could
elements of the visual world be used in an abstract manner.
Hence, there is a contradiction between civilization and the
modern movement.

The Mythic and Lyric and, the Epic

An existence in disregard of time is mythic. Lyricism is
dominated by this type of existence. Existence with the
conscience of time is epic.
Civilization is dominated by epic existence. Cultures could
be dominated by epic or by the lyric existence.

The Judeo-Christian existence is epic.
The Germanic realm of the nibelungian space is lyrical, it
exists only in  the mythical space.
The heroes depicted by the ancient Greek pottery float on
dark background symbolizing the mythical past. Homer brought
the mythical past in the epic realm. Given a specific
environment for existence, a lyric-mythical culture could
emerge in an epic one. All cultures integrated in a
civilization are preponderantly epic.

Existing cultures preponderantly lyrical defy civilization.
Transhumant Balkan cultures are defying the western
civilization.  Goethe admired this trace of the Serbs being
himself in rebellion with the civilization. The Orthodox
creed mystified Christ.  The Byzantine existence is frozen in
time. After a thousand years without change, the Balkans
exist outside the realm of the western civilization. The epic
struggle of the western world has no resplendence in it.

Modernism defied the civilization from within.
Multi culturalism equate cultures outside the civilization
context.

Albert Albu

In article >, Tony
and Celia Becker > writes:

>There now!  I knew you could do better.  By the way, which mountain are
you?
>;-)
>
>Cecilia
>
>N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

I live in the valley, Cecilia. Need me to shout so you can hear me up
there among the clouds?
Sam Stowe

"Baby, will you eat snack crackers wearin'
that, uh, special outfit you bought?"
-- Southern Culture on the Skids, "Camel Walk"

In article >, Lajos MONOKI
> writes:

>
>Poor Americans! They even don't speak English :-O  :-O  :-O
>
>
>
>******************************
>*       Lajos Monoki         *
>*  NCR Hungary - CSS Szeged  *
>* e-mail: *
>*  Tel/Fax: +36-62-434101    *
>*    Mobil: +36-30-584523    *
>******************************

Indeed! Pitiful, ain't we? Unlike heroic, Magyar mathematics grad
students.
Sam Stowe

"Baby, will you eat snack crackers wearin'
that, uh, special outfit you bought?"
-- Southern Culture on the Skids, "Camel Walk"

Valaki elarulna nekem hogy mi a fene baja van a Szlovakoknak a Magyarokkal es
vice versa?

Could any one please explain to me what in the dickens is the problem of the
Slovak government and people with Hungarians?! (and vice versa if aplicable...)
vitaly franko

Recently released documents show that Nikita Khrushchev was considering
recognizing Imre Nagy's government up to two days before the Soviet attack
on Budapest.

Joe Szalai

"If we were to promise people nothing better than only revolution, they
would scratch their heads and say: "Is it not better to have good goulash?""
              Nikita Khrushchev

In article >,  says...
>
>In article >,  writes:
>
>>Yes, they were murdered and they were murdered when Hungary was in the
>>hands of those germanofils who rejected the values of the Western
>>Civilization, ... back in the XIX'c. This will hapen any time
>>
>>
>
>They were murdered with the active assistance of the Hungarian
government.
>Remember, the Germans didn't seize control of the country until the
>process of rounding Jews up and shipping them off to Auschwitz was
already
>well underway. Hungary could have resisted the German pressure to hand
>over its Jews. It did so successfully for several years. The Danes
helped
>their Jewish population (admittedly a much smaller percentage of their
>total population) escape to Sweden, while the Bulgarians simply refused
>point-blank to either turn theirs over to the Nazis for extermination or
>to do the job themselves. Thousands of Christian Hungarians risked their
>own lives to save those of Jewish neighbors. But thousands more
willingly
>and eagerly participated in the round-ups.
>Sam Stowe
>
>"Baby, will you eat snack crackers wearin'
>that, uh, special outfit you bought?"
>-- Southern Culture on the Skids, "Camel Walk"

True.  It was not the Germans, but the Hungarian Arrowcross, who rounded
up Jews and shot them into the Danube.  But yes, there were hundert of
decent people who did everything possible to help.

In article >,  says...
>
>Judit Frigyes and Peter Laki wrote:
>
> > Bela Bartok was a Nationalist -> chauvinist -> antisemite
>
>
>I want opinions from:
>
>        Eva, Sam Stowe, Peter I. Hidas, Joe Szalai, Aniko, Jeliko,eorge
>Szaszvari of Milky Way and all others.
>
>
>Albert Albu

This is the first time I hear that, and I don't know where these people
took it from.  I am no fan of Bartok - my taste of music is quite
conservative (Aniko will hit me on the head for this again), but this
has nothing to do with personalities.  Eg., I love Wagner, in spite of
him being the favourite composer of the Nazis.

Agnes

At 11:26 AM 9/27/96, Stowewrite wrote:
>In article >,  writes:
>
>>Yes, they were murdered and they were murdered when Hungary was in the
>>hands of those germanofils who rejected the values of the Western
>>Civilization, ... back in the XIX'c. This will hapen any time
>>
>>
>
>They were murdered with the active assistance of the Hungarian government.
>Remember, the Germans didn't seize control of the country until the
>process of rounding Jews up and shipping them off to Auschwitz was already
>well underway.

Hungary was occupied in March, 1944. The deportation of the Jews followed.
Horthy and his government (Kallay) resisted and categorically rejected over
and over the German demands for ghettoizing, branding and deportation of
the Jews until that date. The deportation was organized in 1944 by A.
Eichmann and his 200 agents with the support of the Hungarian civil service
and gendarmerie.

Peter I. Hidas
Montreal

In article >,  writes:

>Cultures and Civilization
>
>Cultures could exist within or outside civilization. If you
>do not accept a value system defined by the past 500 years
>you are defying the civilization.
>
>Time, as history that exists in our conscience, gives
>semantic meaning to the elements of the visual environment.
>The semantic meaning is an expression of the system of values
>and measures defined as a civilization. Within civilization,
>cultures could coexist. Some of them so crucial that that if
>removed will alter the civilization. Others, are not so
>important. Without them the civilization could go on to
>exist.
>
>The Abstract
>
>An  abstract  element is a fallacy since it cold exist only
>outside time. Only devoid of the semantic manning could
>elements of the visual world be used in an abstract manner.
>Hence, there is a contradiction between civilization and the
>modern movement.
>
>The Mythic and Lyric and, the Epic
>
>An existence in disregard of time is mythic. Lyricism is
>dominated by this type of existence. Existence with the
>conscience of time is epic.
>Civilization is dominated by epic existence. Cultures could
>be dominated by epic or by the lyric existence.
>
>The Judeo-Christian existence is epic.
>The Germanic realm of the nibelungian space is lyrical, it
>exists only in  the mythical space.
>The heroes depicted by the ancient Greek pottery float on
>dark background symbolizing the mythical past. Homer brought
>the mythical past in the epic realm. Given a specific
>environment for existence, a lyric-mythical culture could
>emerge in an epic one. All cultures integrated in a
>civilization are preponderantly epic.
>
>Existing cultures preponderantly lyrical defy civilization.
>Transhumant Balkan cultures are defying the western
>civilization.  Goethe admired this trace of the Serbs being
>himself in rebellion with the civilization. The Orthodox
>creed mystified Christ.  The Byzantine existence is frozen in
>time. After a thousand years without change, the Balkans
>exist outside the realm of the western civilization. The epic
>struggle of the western world has no resplendence in it.
>
>Modernism defied the civilization from within.
>Multi culturalism equate cultures outside the civilization
>context.
>
>Albert Albu

Absolute gobbledy-gook, particularly the first couple of paragraphs. Are
you sure you don't need your medication adjusted, Al?
Sam Stowe

"Baby, will you eat snack crackers wearin'
that, uh, special outfit you bought?"
-- Southern Culture on the Skids, "Camel Walk"

In article >,
 says...
>Recently released documents show that Nikita Khrushchev was considering
>recognizing Imre Nagy's government up to two days before the Soviet attack
>on Budapest.
>"If we were to promise people nothing better than only revolution, they
>would scratch their heads and say: "Is it not better to have good
>goulash?""
>              Nikita Khrushchev

Interesting. I remember reading in his attributed biography (of about
25 years, or so, ago) that he admitted: *we made mistakes in Hungary*,
but I cannot believe the Soviet hawks could have allowed anything but
suppression of the revolution, whatever misgivings Kruschev might have
had. Installing the Kadar regime was presumably better than other (worse)
possibilities that would have happened had Stalin still been around.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Commodore=64...ICPUG ** NW London CC

George Szaszvari wrote:
>
> In article >,
>  says...
> >Recently released documents show that Nikita Khrushchev was considering
> >recognizing Imre Nagy's government up to two days before the Soviet attack
> >on Budapest.
> >"If we were to promise people nothing better than only revolution, they
> >would scratch their heads and say: "Is it not better to have good
> >goulash?""
> >              Nikita Khrushchev
>
> Interesting. I remember reading in his attributed biography (of about
> 25 years, or so, ago) that he admitted: *we made mistakes in Hungary*,
> but I cannot believe the Soviet hawks could have allowed anything but
> suppression of the revolution, whatever misgivings Kruschev might have
> had. Installing the Kadar regime was presumably better than other (worse)
> possibilities that would have happened had Stalin still been around.
>
> --
> George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
> Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Commodore=64...ICPUG ** NW London CC
------



But they are all communist, ALL, are they?

The new Hungary will have/be:

       - no nationality
              - no religion
       - no borders
       - no old, they will be all dead
       - will be capitalist CAPITALIST *****C A P I T A L I S T ***
       - member in NATO, EU, .:, :.,........
                                                        - with a population of 
3
 M, before the new immigration bill.



Albert Albu

FOREVER YOUNG... wrote:
>
> Valaki elarulna nekem hogy mi a fene baja van a Szlovakoknak a Magyarokkal es
> vice versa?
>
> Could any one please explain to me what in the dickens is the problem of the
> Slovak government and people with Hungarians?! (and vice versa if
aplicable...)
> vitaly franko



En elarulom,.....






                     a the fejed lagy, ez a
titok

                                                    your head is green, GRUNER