At 20:22 08-02-1997 -0500, you wrote:
>At 08:53 AM 2/8/97 -0800, Doug wrote:
>>How in the world do I keep getting messages from this list and the very=
 few
>>that I respond to never come back to me - as if I never posted them?
>
>        I forgot how but you can set HUNGARY in such a way that you can get
>copies of your own posts. Hugh is around--as it is clear from his excellent
>response to the Slovak-Hungarian question posed by Johanne--and I am sure=
 he
>will give you a hand.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Thanks Eva,

Farkas G=E1bor sent me the instructions (which I never fully read) given=
 when
you first sign on and it gives the details there on how to get a copy of
what you send.

Ciao!

Doug
                                =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D
Just moved - New address is: 2701 Corabel Lane #34, Sacramento, CA 95821
(same phone#'s)
                        (Make a note of it, if interested)

   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Doug da Rocha Holmes            | Doug Holmes - Director=09
------------------------------- | Hungarian/American Friendship Society
Specialist in Azorean Genealogy | Website: www.dholmes.com/hafs.html
Website: www.dholmes.com        | (Specializing in Hungarian & Slovak genealogy
)
   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Thanks to Eva Balogh for her succint review of the atlas entry.


>made serious efforts at industrializing the Felvide'k (Upper Hungary), the
>name of the northern areas of Greater Hungary. Tax breaks were given to

        This is just a technicality: a true translation of _Felvidek_
is either the "Upper Country", or possibly the "Upper Land(s)", should
we worry that a reader will misunderstand _country_ as a "body
politic" instead of "countryside".
        But if readers are expected to be confused by this, then
_Northern (Kingdom of) Hungary_ is a better reference to that region
(starting from about the 11th century), since "north" (as opposed to
"upper") is readily identifiable by anyone.  _Upper Hungary_ is
neither a translation of _Felvidek_, nor a clear reference to the
geographic area in question (just like "Northern Scandinavia" is not
a translation of _Lappland_ or _Nordkalotten_, but an understandable
reference to that region).


>Catholic priest called Hlinka, immediately protested but he was arrested by
>the French police in Paris at the request of Edvard Benes. Thus, the Slovaks
>were never really truly satisfied with their lot within Czechoslovakia.

        This was probably true of many Slovaks, but not necessarily of
"the" Slovaks; or if it was, it didn't influence everyone's political
vote.  In 1935, even after 12 years of Czechoslovakia, the two Slovak
autonomist parties won 30.1% of the votes and the five Czechoslovakian
centralist parties 37%.  A fear of Horthy's Hungary may have played a
role in some of the pro-centralist vote then.


>        This part is true. The "Great Moravian Empire" Doug mentioned wasn't
>as grant as the name would indicate. Moreover, we know darn little about it.
>Although the Slovak nationalists were hard at creating national heroes
>ruling in those days, they were shadowy figures. (It is interesting to look

        To a varying degree, these figures were also worked into
Czech, Czechoslovakian, Polish and even Sorbian histories.  We would
probably know darn more about ancient Great Moravia's shades of gray
if the dozens of papers and books on this period published in the past
three decades by Slovak, Czech and Polish archeologists and historians
were available in English.  Many may not have been written with a goal
to create heroes for those nations.


>        And by the way, the main problem between the Czechs and the Slovaks
>was that they had entirely different historical experiences and as the
>result entirely different outlooks. They speak very closely related
>languages but they think and act very differently. The Czechs are mostly
>free-thinkers, while the Slovaks are fairly devoted Catholics, for example.

        As Eva says, Slovakia was just a province in pre-WW2
Czechoslovakia and not even that in the former Kingdom.  As a result,
there's less information about it than about whole countries, and some
popular assumptions about its past are rather anecdotal.
        Contrary to what Western (and even Visegrad) media often said
before Czechoslovakia's recent split, the Czech lands were
traditionally more Roman Catholic than Slovakia.
        According to the 1921 census, only 70.9% people in Slovakia
were Roman Catholic, while 78.2% were Catholic in Bohemia and as many
as 89.5% in Moravia-Silesia.
        17.7% people in Slovakia were Protestant (12.8 Slovak Lutheran,
4.8% Calvinist and 0.1% German Lutheran).  Only 3.7% of the people in
Bohemia were Protestants.  Moreover, most of the Slovak anti-centralist
activists in the 19th century were Lutheran while the Czech ones were
mostly Catholic (albeit perhaps not devout).


Sociological research and opinion polls have not not focused on the kind
of Slovak--Czech differences that Eva hints at.  Whatever there is
shows similarities and differences that go with the level of
urbanization rather than with anything else.  The same applies to the
limited research into any differences between the Slovaks and the
Hungarians in Slovakia.  The few post-communist parallel polls in the
ex-Comecon countries do not capture that, either: they they do not
automatically place the Slovaks with the Czechs or the Hungarians.
        It seems reasonable to expect that various aspects of Slovak
culture should show a closer link with the Hungarians than with the
Czechs.  Apparently, Hungarian, Slovak and Czech sociologists,
anthropologists and political scientists don't go after it.



Martin

Hugh Agnew writes:

> On another issue:  I too don't think too much of crossposting.  Other
> lists have their members, participants, quarrels, and issues; we have
> ours.  Maybe if this list is the subject of discussion on other lists,
> we can assume some interest in those discussions, but what use would it
> be to "invade" other lists, and what could they possibly do here?
> Perhaps it's appropriate here to remember a quote somebody once posted
> on this list, from a seventeenth-century Hungarian Counter-Reformation
> polemicist:
>
> "Ha szarral harcolsz, ha megbirod is, ha megbir is, szaros leszesz."

Great quote, wrong century, and wrong side of the Great Divide.  The
author of the quote was a protestant preacher, and the century was the
16th.

I agree with Hugh's point: there is no territory to be conquered on the
Internet, no battles to be won, and no fort to hold.  The Net is a
memoryless channel, where any issue thought to be well and truly settled
can and will be reopened by the first clueless newbie to show up tomorrow.
So the martial metaphors about invasions and such are completely off-the-
wall.

By the way, extensive samples of 16th, 17th and 18th century Hungarian
prose (including Peter Bornemissza's writings) can now be found on the
Net at http://www.idg.hu/expo/oktogon/corpus/.  Much of this material
was put on-line as part of the project on the forthcoming Hungarian
version of an OED-like comprehensive dictionary of the Hungarian
language.  Jeliko probably found this treasure trove before I did...

-----
Gabor Fencsik

E.Balogh wrote:

>vice-president of the unreformed communist party in Hungary (Munkaspart)
>joined the FORUM about a month ago and the Munkaspart is the strongest
>opponent of NATO. (Mind you, the party secretary, a certain Gyula Thurmer,
>also supports Milosevic and gave hearty endorsement--a bit prematurely--to
>the leaders of the communist coup attempt in Russia!!)  The Munkaspart also
>has a website where you can vote on the NATO issue. According to the latest
>results the pro-NATO people are leading by a few hundred votes. Our vice

I don't think that they can be dangereous. The 'Munkaspart' is a political
'nobody', they have 2-3% popularity. Most of the 'serious' political party
is pro-NATO, with the possible exception of the FKGP. I guess you meant them
when you wrote:

>market economy first?" Those people who are committed to the "nepi-nemzeti"
>(that is right of center) politics are really the followers of the populists
>of the 1930s. Add to these people the left-wingers (I would consider them to
>be 15-20% of the population) and then you have close to fifty percent of the
>electorate who are against NATO because their "third-road ideas" are also
>influencing their thinking about NATO.

These 'third-road ideas' are the real dangers. And I would add one more.
Last summer when I was at home, I talked about this NATO issue with my
family members. Let's say they was not really enthusiastic about the
idea. They were not against it, but simple did not believe it. They
kept saying 'they (i.e NATO) won't accept us, why to force it'. The
same type of stupidy as the one made so many people to vote for the
Socialist Party.

>        I have a real aversion to the populist ideology in the first place
>and I find any kind of anti-NATO propaganda dangerous for Hungary. Someone
>whose field is Hungarian foreign policy between the two world wars and
>general European diplomatic history during the same period, I am horrified
>at the thought that Eastern Europe could become no man's land again. As I
>tried to explain Russia is in bad shape now but sooner or later she will
>recover. And given the internal political scene there we have no idea what
>kind of regime will emerge in, let's say, five years in Russia.

I am glad to see that we have the same opinion in one subject at least.

J.Zs

P.S: By the way that 15-20% left-winger is just a joke, isn't it?

In article >, Ferenc Novak,
who's still waiting for that call back about his Magyarization
application, > writes:

>And he complained loudly when someone recently used just one
objectionable
> word, "garbage" to describe some communists.
>
>His sophomoric style is not amusing.  Nor is his puerile effort at being
>funny.  It is futile to try to debate with someone who is incapable of
>carrying on a discussion without invoking the style and language of
whatever
>intellectual backwater he calls home.
>
>Ferenc
>
>
You're just jealous because: a) you can't come close to matching my witty
style and b) you're much, much dumber than I am and you know it. But,
please, don't stop posting the same thing over and over again, Frank. It
speaks volumes about your incapacity for original thought or an
interesting way of elucidating it. It's nice to see someone who's openly
moronic and mediocre and isn't afraid for anyone else to notice.
Sam Stowe

"Missionaries and cannibals
make perfect couples..."
-- Paul Theroux

In article >,
 says...
>
>Egy tanar levele idegenbe kerult tanitvanyahoz:
>
>1954.oktober 8.
>Edes Fiam!
>    Intezeteden keresztul a nevelesed a magyar szuleidrol,tanaraidrol
>idegen
>oktatora harult.  Utravaloul egy tarisznyat adok..
>    Tudod mi a legnehezebb ebben a tarisznyaban?  A Felelosseg!  Te
>Magyarnak
>szulettel!  Uj oktatoid errol neked soha nem fognak beszelni.
Szulofolded
>kicsi orszag,fiam,kicsiny nep a magyar,de megis nagy nemzet a magyar,s
>ezert nagy a felelosseg.  Fenyes csillagok es ustokosok jartak es jarjak
be
>foldunk egboltjat,hordozva es hirdetve azt,amitol nagy lett a magyar
>nemzet.
>    Ennek a csillogasnak benned is fenn kell maradnia!  Nagy a
>felelosseg,es
>az sokat kovetel,orok ebrenletet,meg nem alkuvast,folt nelkuli
>becsuletet,onfegyelmet,rendet,tisztasagot,onnevelest es szorgalmat.
>Ne tevesszenek meg masok,ne riasszon vissza a guny es a nevetes.
>Tarisznyadban a masik fenyes es sugarzo,az a hit megkoveteli,hogy higyj
>Istenben, lelked magassabbrendusegeben,a josagban,az erenyekben meg
akkor
>is,ha azt masok meggyalazzak.  Hited jele mindenkor a Kereszt
>legyen.Folotte ott izzik a biztatas:"E jelben gyozni fogsz!".
>Tarisznyadban talalod
>meg a meleg,izzo szeretetet,mely egyszer racsordult erre a foldre,hogy
>megvaltson bennunket.  Sokan Ot megtagadjak,a gyulolet langjai lovelnek
>feleje.  Ne engedd,hogy azon langok elhamvasszak a lelkedben a
Szeretetet.
>Talasz csillogo kis gombocskeket,gyongyoket tarisznyadban.
>Azokkal jatszal fiam,csak el ne veszits egyet sem beloluk,meg ne sertsd
>oket,mert akkor szep csengo hangjuk szintelenne valik,eltompul.  Azok
>fiam, a Magyar Betuk.Jatszal csak fiam veluk kedvvel es odaadassal,es
>vigyazz
>idegen gyongy ne keveredjen kozejuk.  Csillognak,csengnek,bugnak mint az
>orgona tomor rezgese.Kifejezik a legmagasabb rendu gondolatot,eszmet,
>a legmelyebb erzeseket...mint a Fold egyetlen nyelve nem kepes.  Nem
tudok
>mar adni tobb tudast,hirt vagy vagyont.  Nem adok apro jotanacsokat,
>azokat magadnak kell megszerezned.  Utravaloul csupan ezt a tarisznyat
>adom,melyet bizony idonkent nehez cipelned.  Allj meg erosen a labadon.
>A hit kemenysege teged acelossa tesz.  A szeretet melegsege feloldodik
es
>folyik ereidben,es ha a gyongyokkel mesterien tudsz jatszani;semmi sem
>donthet le a labaidrol.
>Isten vezereljen,es a magyarok Nagyasszonya vedjen utaidon.
>(Kanadai Magyarsag:1997.februar 1.)
>A Rambo Arpi.
>

Soha annyi gonoszsagot es gyilkossagot nem kovettek al a tortenelem
folyaman, mint a kereszt neveben!

Agnes
>
>

In article >,
 says...
>
>My wife and I were eating dinner tonight and watching the evening news
>when Peter Jennings (Hungarian content: former husband of Kati Marton)
>introduced a story about Madeleine Albright and her recent discovery
that
>her grandparents were Jewish. My wife asked a pretty pertinent question,
>namely why didn't Mrs. Albright's parents tell her about her heritage? I
>told her I'd ask you guys if you'd ever heard of any famous Hungarians
in
>recent years who have discovered that grandparents or parents were
Jewish.
>
>Also, I've run across a biography of Chana Szenes in my local
university's
>library. Szenes was reared in Budapest and went to live in a kibbutz in
>Israel before the Second World War. She volunteered for some kind of
>secret spying mission (I'm not sure for who) during the war and
parachuted
>into Hungary where she was captured, held, tortured and shot just a
short
>time before the war ended. Any of you folks ever heard of her?
>Sam Stowe
>
>"Missionaries and cannibals
>make perfect couples..."
>-- Paul Theroux

Chana Szenes is very famous, Sam.  After the war, in my scout group (I
was in a co-ed group the Vorosmarthy) there was a group (I don't know how
to say "raj" in English), that was named after her.  I also read her
mother's autobiography.

Re: people discovering in adulthood the Jewish connection: I already
mentioned previously that Hungarian Jews were - and are - completely
assimilated.  The majority Hungarized their names.  There are tremendous
amount of mixed marriages.  After the war, the Hungarian jews just
had enough and, during the communist era, it was very convenient to
forget about religion.  It came to a great surprise to me that in present
day Hungary, after two generations of Jews not having religion in their
birth certificates and growing up totally ignorant of their Jewish
heritage,  all of a sudden everybody knew who is Jewish and who isn't.

Incidentally, there is a great book on Hungarian Jews (unfortunately, I
don't think it has been translated yet), called "A Zsido Budapest".  I
couldn't believe my eyes learning about all the famous artists and
playwrights who happened to be all Jewish.  Eg. Kovacs Margit, the famous
ceramist.  But these people didn't become famous as Jews, but as
Hungarian artist, writers, playrights, musicians, etc.

Agnes

In article >,
 says...
>
>Dear List Members,
>
>        Before we begin a discussion on Madelein Albright's heritage and
>before I try to answer Sam's question let me tell you that until
yesterday I
>was delighted with the appointment of Madeleine Albright. After all, she
was
>born in Czechoslovakia, her father's book on the communist take-over in
>Prague was practically compulsory reading at the time I was taking
>East-European politics, she knows several languages, she is interested
in
>our region, she went to Columbia where the Soviet and East European
studies
>program was very, very good. Shall I say more? But then, I read an
article
>in yesterday's New York Times and my high opinion of Madelein Albright
>suddenly plummeted. She maybe smart, she may turn out to be a good
secretary
>of state, but I don't think that she is a good person. If you are
interested
>in the article, please let me know and I will send it out to those
>interested. (I dowloaded it from yesterday's internet edition of the
paper.)
>
>        Eva Balogh

I am interested - if it is not too long!  Agnes

In article >, 
says...
>
>Yes I am lurking arround in this thread and the same on the new Szabad
thread.
>I understand you are looking for more hunagarian associate stories.
>Well for the last few days the new Forum,now called Szabad has some
people
>bringing up again the question and hatred against Jews.
>Since I do not intend to get involvald with that garbich thread,I would
be
>interrested how do You feel about it.
>On the other hand they also write that this Hungary is anti
Hungarian.Well I
>do not care about that opinion,neither for the help some of them ask
against
>"Hungary".
>I would like to hear from you as a Jew who absolutly had enough with
those
>so called
>hungarians who do not have any other tema.
>Regards:Andy K.


Hi, Andy.  I haven't read the Szabad (where is it?), but I don't care for
Mr. Liptak either.  We write English on the Hungary line (and many write
English on the "magyar" too, because of the many second generation people
and those who are married to Hungarians.  You know as well as I do that
there always will be a faction of Hungarians who spread antisemitic
propaganda.  Apropos, have you ever visited soc.culture.canada?  There is
a person there hogging the whole show under the cover name Wahrheit - I
think it is Mr. Zundel himself!  If I didn't live in Canada but accessed
it from, say, Hungary, I would think Canada is a nazi state!

Agnes

At 12:48 AM 2/9/97 PST, Gabor Fencsik wrote:

>I agree with Hugh's point: there is no territory to be conquered on the
>Internet, no battles to be won, and no fort to hold.  The Net is a
>memoryless channel, where any issue thought to be well and truly settled
>can and will be reopened by the first clueless newbie to show up tomorrow.

This phrase made me think about the memory of the Net. As a matter of fact
it does have memory, much larger than any human's. The problem is that it
resembles that of rain man's.  With some intelligence (artificial) in the
future it maybe possible to recall arguments of the past to respond to
repeated issues in the present or future.

Gabor D. Farkas

At 04:22 AM 2/9/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>E.Balogh wrote:

>The Munkaspart also
>>has a website where you can vote on the NATO issue. According to the latest
>>results the pro-NATO people are leading by a few hundred votes. Our vice

Janos Zsargo:

>I don't think that they can be dangereous. The 'Munkaspart' is a political
>'nobody', they have 2-3% popularity. Most of the 'serious' political party
>is pro-NATO, with the possible exception of the FKGP.

        Oh, they are not dangerous in the political sense although I bet
that at the next elections they will pass the 5% threshold and will be able
to sent a couple of representatives to Parliament. But their constant
harping on NATO, their collecting over 200,000 signatures for a
referendum--I consider these activities dangerous given the ambivalent
attitude of the electorate.

>These 'third-road ideas' are the real dangers. And I would add one more.
>Last summer when I was at home, I talked about this NATO issue with my
>family members. Let's say they was not really enthusiastic about the
>idea. They were not against it, but simple did not believe it. They
>kept saying 'they (i.e NATO) won't accept us, why to force it'. The
>same type of stupidy as the one made so many people to vote for the
>Socialist Party.

        I would phrase it a little differently. Instead of stupidity I would
speak of ignorance and short-sightedness. They look at Russia now and they
say: Golly, they can't even handle the Chechens. We have nothing to fear.
They somehow look at the world as something static. The Russians are
weak--so they are weak. We don't have to worry. That is the
short-sightedness side of it. The ignorance on matters of history and
different parts of the world is also staggering. The more I read
contributions of especially younger people (in their late twenties, early
thirties) the more I realize that the socialist propaganda made serious
inroads in Hungary. (Mind you, if you tell them that they will deny it to
their last breaths: they were never influenced by their surroundings!) First
of all, there are fairly fierce anti-American feelings and they look upon
NATO as the exclusive creation of the United States. Second, a widespread
aversion to capitalism (whether that feeling comes from the populist
third-road ideas or from the teachings of the Kadar-regime it really doesn't
matter. The result is the same.) Third, a total lack of true appreciation of
Hungary's place--or any other small country's for that matter--in the world.
When someone rather wisely mentioned that Hungary being a small country has
only limited choices in foreign affairs, an angry young man shouted back:
"But I will never reconcile myself to that! Never!!" (I wonder what he is
planning to do about it(;)) When you tell some of these people that Hungary
right now must build a workable market economy and, yes, the Hungarians must
learn from other, western nations, in this endeavor because they are the
ones who have experience, angry shouts come back: "We have had to listen to
the Russians until now and we are not going to listen again, this time to
the Americans." "We don't want to get lectures from people living in the
United States!" And after that comes a litany of American sins from the high
rate of crime to capitalist "free looting" and hamburgers.

>I am glad to see that we have the same opinion in one subject at least.

        If you stick around long enough we might agree on many more issues (;))

>P.S: By the way that 15-20% left-winger is just a joke, isn't it?

        No, I am not joking although I am guessing. My assessment is based
on various polls, asking questions which may be pertinent in determining
people's political leanings. And, by the way, you may have noticed but more
and more left-wingers, apologists for the Kadar-regime, pro-Soviet
sentiments are being uttered on the lists. And one more thing, based on
personal experiences and also based on utterances on the Internet I am
coming to the conclusion that perhaps the majority of the population has no
appreciation of democracy and they simply cannot see the differences between
a democratic state and a non-democratic one. In fact, many of them are
certain that democracy means anarchy and brought suffering to Hungary.

        As for the Smallholders (since you mentioned that they may not be
for NATO), I am sure they are not for NATO, even if Torgyan doesn't say so
openly. Not only that but I bet that Torgyan's followers--and that is about
20 percent of the electorate right now--will go to the polls and vote with a
"no" to NATO. In brief, I am worried about the referendum and the
governments in Hungary are not noted for being able to "communicate" with
the population. Again, I think because they are not accustomed to the kind
of openness and accountibility we take for granted.

        Eva Balogh

Isn't it wonderful when three people with different ethnic
backgrounds can agree? This seems to be the case in this case when Martin
Votruba, Hugh Agnew and I pretty well agree on the situation of Slovaks
within historic Hungary.

At 01:03 AM 2/9/97 -0500, Martin Votruba wrote:

>        This is just a technicality: a true translation of _Felvidek_
>is either the "Upper Country", or possibly the "Upper Land(s)", should
>we worry that a reader will misunderstand _country_ as a "body
>politic" instead of "countryside".

        Yes, Martin is quite right but in the literature it is normally
translated as Upper Hungary. And, by the way, I was using the word Felvide'k
rather carefully because talking about Slovakia before 1919 is inaccurate.
As for your suggestion of giving a better name to Felvide'k, I am thinking
of "Upland," especially in its meaning of "ground elevated above the
lowlands along rivers or between hills." What do you think?

>>Catholic priest called Hlinka, immediately protested but he was arrested by
>>the French police in Paris at the request of Edvard Benes. Thus, the Slovaks
>>were never really truly satisfied with their lot within Czechoslovakia.
>
>        This was probably true of many Slovaks, but not necessarily of
>"the" Slovaks; or if it was, it didn't influence everyone's political
>vote.  In 1935, even after 12 years of Czechoslovakia, the two Slovak
>autonomist parties won 30.1% of the votes and the five Czechoslovakian
>centralist parties 37%.  A fear of Horthy's Hungary may have played a
>role in some of the pro-centralist vote then.

        Yes, I remember these figures myself but I always wondered how
accurate they were of the true sentiment of the Slovak electorate. I was
always a little skeptical. But I think you are right, the fear of Horthy's
Hungary was a factor.

>        Contrary to what Western (and even Visegrad) media often said
>before Czechoslovakia's recent split, the Czech lands were
>traditionally more Roman Catholic than Slovakia.
>        According to the 1921 census, only 70.9% people in Slovakia
>were Roman Catholic, while 78.2% were Catholic in Bohemia and as many
>as 89.5% in Moravia-Silesia.
>        17.7% people in Slovakia were Protestant (12.8 Slovak Lutheran,
>4.8% Calvinist and 0.1% German Lutheran).  Only 3.7% of the people in
>Bohemia were Protestants.  Moreover, most of the Slovak anti-centralist
>activists in the 19th century were Lutheran while the Czech ones were
>mostly Catholic (albeit perhaps not devout).

        Yes. I didn't express myself properly. The Czechs were more Catholic
than the Slovaks as far as percentages go but they had a much more casual
attitude toward religion (that is what I called free-thinkers) while the
Slovak Catholics were more devout. And yes, I agree with Martin that this
was mostly the result of the predominance of agriculture in Slovakia.
        As for the Protestants being in the forefront of national
activities, I am not at all surprised about that. Look at the situation
among the Hungarians: the Protestants were always more fiercely against
Vienna than the Catholics.

>        It seems reasonable to expect that various aspects of Slovak
>culture should show a closer link with the Hungarians than with the
>Czechs.  Apparently, Hungarian, Slovak and Czech sociologists,
>anthropologists and political scientists don't go after it.

        I purposely didn't want to go into that because "national
characteristics" is such a controversial issue. But I agree with Martin, the
Slovaks, for better or worse, resemble the Hungarians (or vica versa) while
the Czech character shows remarkable similarities to that of the Germans. At
the moment I wish that both the Slovaks and the Hungarians would be somewhat
more like the Czechs whom the Hungarians always found very dull. But their
temperament seems to me much more suitable to the kind of challenges these
three countries face than the that of the Slovaks or the Hungarians.

        And that remind me of something which happened more than 30 years
ago. I was on a trip--fairly long drive. I was looking for an acceptable
radio station when to my great surprise I found one which--as far as I was
concerned--was broadcasting Hungarian folksongs. There I was, singing along
merrily when I became aware that the lyrics were--how shall I say--not quite
familiar. It turned out to be an ethnic Slovak broadcast. All the best known
Hungarian folksongs also exist in Slovak. Which came from where? I assume
you would have to be a musicologist to figure it out.

        And here is another personal experience which I found very moving.
(Unfortunately such things happen only rarely!). I happened to be in Hungary
during the Prague Spring events although the news of the final outcome
reached me in the United States. One evening I was in a restaurant and at
the next table there was a bunch of Slovak tourists. There was such a
sympathy in Hungary toward Czechoslovakia at that time that a group of
Hungarians at another table called the Gypsy and paid him to go to the
Slovak table and play some typical Slovak songs.

        Eva Balogh

She very well-known in Israel. She comes from a literary family (Szenes
Ivan was a cabaret-writer where cabaret means a theater with satirical
sketches), she herself wrote some nice poetry.                  R

At 9:21 AM -0800 2/9/97, Robert Hetzron wrote:
>She very well-known in Israel. She comes from a literary family (Szenes
>Ivan was a cabaret-writer where cabaret means a theater with satirical
>sketches), she herself wrote some nice poetry.                  R

Hannah (Aniko) Szenes  (1921-1944)  tried to save the Jews of Hungary.

The Jewish Agency offices in Jerusalem and Istanbul considered the
possibility of sending a small mission to Hungary as early as January 1944.
The mission, it was  envisioned, would provide advice about and leadership
for the organization of some kind of resistance and self-help in the event
of a German occupation. The British reluctantly consented to the sending of
a handful of Hungarian-speaking Palestinian Jews to Hungary. Three officers
were selected and trained by the British for organizational and
intelligence operations in Hungary. They were volunteered who had emigrated
to Palestine in the late 1930s. One of them was the 23 years old Hannah
Szenes, formerly of Budapest. Her father, Bela, was a relatively well-known
author and playright but Hanna (Aniko) herself was also a poet and writer,
a romantic and sensitive soul with great interest in Hungarian literature.

After training in Egypt she was taken to Bari, Italy. From there she was
flown over Yugoslavia and parachuted over partisan-held territory on March
13, 1944. She spent three months among Tito's partisans. Szenes crossed the
border into Hungary on June 9. She was promptly arrested. Szenes was
imprisoned in Budapest, where the police tried to compel her to cooperate
with them by arresting her widowed mother Katherine (Kat=F3) Szenes. For
three months they were held in separate cells in the same prison. Following
the Szalasi coup Hannah was tried by a Nyilas court and executed on
November 7.

Braham, Randolph L. The Hungarian Labor Service System, 1939-1945.  Boulder
Colo.: East European Quarterly; New York, distributed by Columbia
University Press, 1977. pp.993-5

Senes, Hanna. Her Life and Diary. London: Vallentine, 1971.

At 01:37 AM 2/6/97 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:

<snip>
>You're just being a ding-dong again, Joe. Vico, Hegel and Spengler are the
>prime philosophical founts of historicism. Your political views are
>heavily informed by the historicist idea that human history leads from
>some definable schema to another, be it utopian or dystopian, and that
>history can be used to predict the future with a great degree of
>confidence. From there it's a short step to your perpetual whining about
>what's so funny about peace, love and understanding. Popper challenged
>that tradition ("The Poverty of Historicism" is a short read and has the
>added attraction of being obscure enough that Gyorgy Soros is unlikely to
>grab onto it as subject matter the next time he feels the overwhelming
>urge to bloviate in the pages of the Atlantic Monthly) and he's not the
>only one. Sir Isaiah Berlin's collection of essays, "The Crooked Timber of
>Humanity," also challenges the assumptions of historicist tradition. I
>would urge you to read both philosophers, Joe, but I know how hard you've
>worked to cement your mind shut. Let me, however, just remind you what
>George Santayana said: "Those who refuse to learn from the past are
>destined to work the drive-through window."
>Sam Stowe

Yeah, I agree with you.  However, you forgot to ask me if I wanted fries
with your epistle.

Joe Szalai

After taking ninety-nine years to climb a stairway, the tortoise falls and
says there is a curse on haste.
          Maltese Proverb

At 01:35 AM 2/8/97 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:

<snip>
>I think I can assure you with a great degree of confidence that it would
>not be me. I am not in the least bit interested in undertaking such
>tedious work and there is no polity in the world that is collectively
>crazy enough to ask me to do it. My guess is that it would be carried out
>by the same popularly-elected politicians and career bureaucrats who've
>been doing it in capitalist democracies for years now. You'd have to
>observe them carefully and listen to them to figure out what their real
>interests are in managing such change. Since they're human beings, they
>won't fit into your classificatory system of those with your socialist
>ideals acting out of the purest, most selfless motives and everyone else
>hopping in simply to enrich themselves or lord it over someone else. Why
>don't you do it, Joe? I'm serious about this. You're idealistic, smart,
>articulate and have a keen sense of humor. Plus you're honest. I may not
>agree with you about a lot of topics, but I'd vote for you before I'd vote
>for a lot of other people I know.

Hmmm.  Have I seduced you with my ideas already?  Geez, I better not show up
on your doorstep while canvassing.  You wouldn't be able to keep your hands
off of me....

You seem to have a juvenile and mechanical idea of how change occurs.  You
think that voting, marking an 'x' on a piece of paper behind curtains every
few years leads to change.  Given that, I have no doubt that you're one of
those, and there are many of you, who believes that the chemical properties
of "holy water" is different from ordinary water.  Well, I hate to tell you
this, Sam, but there's no difference.

I mentioned in a previous post that Americans voted for Clinton four years
ago because, among other things, he campaigned on establishing medicare for
all.  That 'change through the ballot box' didn't happen.  Doesn't that
bother you?  Don't you feel that your rights as a citizen have been usurped
by a powerful interest group that was never elected?  Need I tell you that
members of that group are very pleased and happy that you're still content
to go behind a curtain and do your 'x'?  And while your doing *that*,
they're off to the bank to deposit even more wealth into their accounts.

In previous posts you've mentioned that the government can't do everything
for people.  And while that's true, you've unintentionally (I think) sided
with those groups in society who wish to privatize just about everything
that government does.  In essence, what they're trying to do is increase the
powers of special interest groups.  And they use today's buzz words and
phrases like, "it'll be more cost effective", "more efficient", to convince
the uninformed and gullible that they have their interests at heart.  But it
will also be less democratic.  Why?  Well, when something is privatized,
decisions will still have to be made.  But you, and, "the people", won't be
part of the decision making.  It will no longer be your concern.  Or so
they'd have you believe.  And, if you don't like what they're doing, you
won't be able to go behind a curtain to vote them out since you didn't vote
them in.

And do you believe, Sam?

Joe Szalai

Politicians neither love nor hate.  Interest, not sentiment, governs them.
         Chesterfield

At 03:59 AM 2/6/97 -0400, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:

<snip>
>But of course! Besides our mutual interest in various kinds of
>bloodsuckers, Joe and I could discuss the relative merits of Library of
>Congress versus Dewey Decimal classification!

Self-abuse sounds more interesting!

>Actually, Joe and I have some aspects of our political philosophy in
>common, despite the fact that he comes at them from a leftie point of view,
>and I of course am a rightie, and that, I believe is that we dislike power
>groups over which we have little or no control having power over our lives.
>Wouldn't that be fair to say, Joe?

Yes and no.

The important difference between a 'leftie' and a 'rightie' is that the
'leftie' is right and the 'rightie' is wrong.  Simple, eh?

I think the problem with powerful groups in society is not so much that I
don't have control over them.  The problem is that they act only out of self
interest.  And because the "corporatist" ideology has attained hegemony in
our society, interest groups are valued over disinterested democratic
participation.  There are hundreds of thousands of groups in society and
this makes positive change very difficult since, it seems, nobody can let go
of their "interest" in favour of the "common good".  And yet, if we are to
thrive socially, and individually, the common good cannot be ignored.  If we
do, then that's our folly.  And eventually we'll pay dearly for it.

Joe Szalai

The slave has but one master; the ambitious man has as many as can help in
making his fortune.
    La Bruyere

Agnes Heringer:I live in Canada.You assumption that this country is Nazi is
libel.
I am not saying that Canada realy has done too much,about the world
criminals,but that does not mean we are Nazis.Far from it.This Country has
the most peace loving people probably on earth.
Even the Quebec question,with there separation,don't bring up any thoughts
of armed intervention.There is gun control,there is more safty here than
definitly in the States.
As a Canadian,Hungarian background,I can tell you,I hope it can never
happen,what has happened and is happening in Hungary.
This is not entierly anti Hungarian,just a comparison,so Lippai shouldn't be
able to say,the list Hungary is anti Hungarian.
Best wishes:Andy

Thank you for commenting on my letter.I agree with you,about confronting
people,who are using there in ability to find there way in society,and using
racist or religious hatred.
Sometimes I am tired of these.I had enough,I do not believe that they can go
any further,than finding an outlet in either Forum_Szabad or here in "Hunagry"
Istavn Lippai tried to disturb the peace.He found himslef incapable to defend,s
o
he turned to "Szabad" and asked for help,day after day.
So far there are no takers,but if he wonders why some of us,maybe myself
included write
not so beautiful stories about Hungary,he can look at himself,and stop
wondering.
Even now the people in the old country are tearing themself apart,instead of
uniting,to look forward for a better future.
It takes time to change,especialy when old communist are again directing the
future.
I hope the best for them,but at the same time,I am extremly happy I do not
live there any longer.
With regards:Andy.

>is,ha azt masok meggyalazzak.  Hited jele mindenkor a Kereszt
>legyen.Folotte ott izzik a biztatas:"E jelben gyozni fogsz!".

>A Rambo Arpi.
>
<Soha annyi gonoszsagot es gyilkossagot nem kovettek al a tortenelem
<folyaman, mint a kereszt neveben!

<Agnes
>
>
Az "In hoc signo..." toertenetet lehetne feszegetni...es NAGYON sok
gonoszsagot es gyiklossagot ( fizikailag es lelektanilag ) koevettek
el a tortenelemben a kereszt neveben. A "soha annyit"-ban nem
lennek olyan biztos. A horogkereszt, a faj, a voeroes csillag, a "tudo-
manyos" szocializmus, a profeta es az Isten tudja ki neveben, nagyon
igyekeztek minden arnyekba allitani...
Miklos

At 10:22 09-02-1997 -0500, Eva wrote:
>        Yes, Martin is quite right but in the literature it is normally
>translated as Upper Hungary. And, by the way, I was using the word Felvide'k
>rather carefully because talking about Slovakia before 1919 is inaccurate.
>As for your suggestion of giving a better name to Felvide'k, I am thinking
>of "Upland," especially in its meaning of "ground elevated above the
>lowlands along rivers or between hills." What do you think?
>
>        Eva Balogh
>

How 'bout "Highlands" like in Scotland?

Doug Holmes

<<<At 08:53 AM 2/8/97 -0800, Doug wrote:
>How in the world do I keep getting messages from this list and the very few
>that I respond to never come back to me - as if I never posted them?

        I forgot how but you can set HUNGARY in such a way that you can get
copies of your own posts. Hugh is around--as it is clear from his excellent
response to the Slovak-Hungarian question posed by Johanne--and I am sure he
will give you a hand.

        Eva Balogh>>>

The word is : SET HUNGARY REPRO

Miklos

At 06:10 AM 2/9/97 -0800, Doug wrote:

>How 'bout "Highlands" like in Scotland?

        Meaning as a translation of "Felvide'k." Actually, this is quite
accurate except when you hear "Highlands," you immediately think of Scotland
and not today's Slovakia. But, I think as far as equivalents go it is perfect.

        Eva Balogh
        

At 12:00 AM 2/9/97 -0400, you wrote:

>From:    Barnabas Bozoki >
>Subject: The Rekai Family
>
>Yesterday (Febr. 7, 1997) an obituary column appeared in the Globe and Mail
>about Paul Rekai (1912-1996), a doctor who with his surgeon brother John
>founded a Central Hospital in Toronto. (333 Sherbourne Ave). I am wondering
>how many Hungarians outside Toronto area know about this remarkable family.
>
>Until 1991 there was a monthly magazine, the Hungarian Heritage Review,
>which regularly reported on issues related to the Hungarian diaspora.
[....]

I was also a regular reader of Hungarian Heritage Review (HHR) and
supported the Rakoczi Foundation, its parent organization, as best as I
could. Unfortunately, Paul Pulitzer, the Editor-Publisher killed it,
hinting at some rather nefarious elements wanting its demise. I never
learned about the true story behind HHR's death, but sure would like to
hear from anyone who may have the insight track on this.

There has not been a publication like HHR since 1991. I sure miss it.

For those of you who never saw a copy, it was written in American English,
revealed many historical stories about us (Hungarian Americans), our
ancestors, posted resources, fabulous recipes by the late Louis Szathmary,
letters, etc. It was a pleasure easily worth the paltry subscription price
($25/yr).

I guess with the advent of Internet, we are not likely to see another
magazine like it. There is something about a hard-copy magazine that will
never be replaced by the electronic medium.....

Oh, well....

Bandi

Joe Szalai pointed out this gem:

> "Istvan Lippai" > wrote:
>
> Uzenet a FORUM magyarjainak:
>     A HUNGARY lista utolso 100 cikje szerzoje alapjan latom, hogy abbol a
> Magyarok majdnem teljessen ki vannak verve.  A szegeny Zsargo meg a Novak
> probalgatjak a Magyar oldalt fent tartani, de ok tul udvariassak  ahhoz,
> hogy a Stowe es Szalai fajta ocsmanysagra vissza vagjanak.
>     Ki akar segiteni?  Arpi, rad szamitok.
> Istvan

Isn't it a wonderful irony how the most Hungarian Hungarians are murdering
the mother tongue of their beloved nation ?   I haven't seen as much totally
awfully messed-up Hungarian usage in my life as from the broad-culotted
brigade on the various discussion groups.

George Antony

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>
>Hmmm.  Have I seduced you with my ideas already?  Geez, I better not show
up
>on your doorstep while canvassing.  You wouldn't be able to keep your
hands
>off of me....

You're one of those lucky people whose opinion of themselves couldn't be
surpassed by anyone else's. You're a natural for politics.

>
>You seem to have a juvenile and mechanical idea of how change occurs.
You
>think that voting, marking an 'x' on a piece of paper behind curtains
every
>few years leads to change.  Given that, I have no doubt that you're one
of
>those, and there are many of you, who believes that the chemical
properties
>of "holy water" is different from ordinary water.  Well, I hate to tell
you
>this, Sam, but there's no difference.

I typically leave the juvenalia to you, Joe, since you seem so at home
with it. You seem to think that unless it involves a socialist version of
peasants storming the castle with pitchforks and torches, it isn't change.

>
>I mentioned in a previous post that Americans voted for Clinton four
years
>ago because, among other things, he campaigned on establishing medicare
for
>all.  That 'change through the ballot box' didn't happen.  Doesn't that
>bother you?  Don't you feel that your rights as a citizen have been
usurped
>by a powerful interest group that was never elected?  Need I tell you
that
>members of that group are very pleased and happy that you're still
content
>to go behind a curtain and do your 'x'?  And while your doing *that*,
>they're off to the bank to deposit even more wealth into their accounts.

It doesn't bother me because a large majority of the American electorate
didn't agree with what the Clinton Administration was proposing. Clinton
has been partially vindicated since then by sweeping, self-initiated
changes in the health care industry which are accomplishing many of the
goal's Clinton's health care reform plan would have accomplished. If you
knew jack-squat about the U.S., you'd have already known this. Do you ever
get tired of this conspiracy manure you ladle out as the answer to all of
life's evils?

>
>In previous posts you've mentioned that the government can't do
everything
>for people.  And while that's true, you've unintentionally (I think)
sided
>with those groups in society who wish to privatize just about everything
>that government does.  In essence, what they're trying to do is increase
the
>powers of special interest groups.  And they use today's buzz words and
>phrases like, "it'll be more cost effective", "more efficient", to
convince
>the uninformed and gullible that they have their interests at heart.  But
it
>will also be less democratic.  Why?  Well, when something is privatized,
>decisions will still have to be made.  But you, and, "the people", won't
be
>part of the decision making.  It will no longer be your concern.  Or so
>they'd have you believe.  And, if you don't like what they're doing, you
>won't be able to go behind a curtain to vote them out since you didn't
vote
>them in.

I got your special interest group right here, pal. All kidding aside,
however, just look in the mirror, Joe. You'll see a special interest group
staring back at you. Everyone in a democracy is a member of several
special interest groups. Politicians know this and that's why they cater
to every conceivable pressure group that comes down the pike. When people
pay as much attention to their duties and obligations as citizens as they
do to their inalienable rights, democracies work. And I'm far from a
libertarian, as everyone with the glaring exception of you has probably
figured out long ago. I'm an LBJ Democrat, remember?

>
>And do you believe, Sam?

Apparently not as fervently as you do, buddy.
Sam Stowe

>
>Joe Szalai
>
>



"Nasal phlegm. Some guys may think it's
funny, Mr. Noir, but it's not."
-- The bartender in Guy Noir's office building

In article >,
 says...
>
>> Soha annyi gonoszsagot es gyilkossagot nem kovettek al a tortenelem
>> folyaman, mint a kereszt neveben!
>>
>> Agnes
>
>Csak bebozonytottad amit mondtam, hogy a HUNGARY lista tele van
kereszteny
>es Magyar gyulolo csocselekkel.  Azert tamadtatok meg amikor hazam
>szereteteterol es Isten tiszteletetrol irtam.  Persze amikor a
>kommunistakat szidtam, az asztan teltessen beboritott titeket.  Nem
voltal
>te sohase Magyar.
>Istvan

A hazat lehet szeretni es Istent is lehet tisztelni anelkul, hogy masokat
bemocskoljunk.  Az en oseim apam reszerol a torok hodoltsag alatt
telepedtek le Magyarorszagra.   A nurnbergi torvenyek valoban idegenne
tettek - de aki olyan nagy magyar, mint On, Lippai ur, legalabb tanuljon
meg helyesen irni magyarul.  Mint emlitette, On angyalfoldi proletar
szarmazasu, tehat az On altal annyira gyulolt kommunista rendszer nem
akadalyozta meg, hogy iskolaba jarjon - mint annyi kortarsamat, akik
polgari szarmazasuk miatt nem mehettek felsobb iskolaba (zsido
szarmazasuakat beleertve!)

Agnes

In article >,
 says...
>
>Yesterday (Febr. 7, 1997) an obituary column appeared in the Globe and
Mail
>about Paul Rekai (1912-1996), a doctor who with his surgeon brother John
>founded a Central Hospital in Toronto. (333 Sherbourne Ave). I am
wondering
>how many Hungarians outside Toronto area know about this remarkable
family.
>
>Until 1991 there was a monthly magazine, the Hungarian Heritage Review,
>which regularly reported on issues related to the Hungarian diaspora. In
>this magazine the Rekais were featured twice, Nov.'87 and June '88.
Since
>the demise of this publication I don't know any media, paper or
electronic,
>which follows the Hungarian "scene" in North America. Only in this list
I
>see occasionally some interest in this subject, so I will briefly
summarize
>what I know about the Rekais.
>
>They left Hungary in 1948, arrived in Canada in 1950. In 1957 founded a
>modest 32 bed private hospital which specialized in multilingual health
care
>for the large immigrant population of Toronto.  In 1969 this small
hospital
>was expanded into a modern 175 bed hospital. In 1987 adjacent to the
>Central hospital opened a multilingual nursing home which is called Drs
>Paul and John Rekai Centre.
>
>John Rekai died in 1978. His wife Kati is famous for her children's
books.
>From the "Adventures of Mickey, Taggy Puppo and Cica, and how they
discover
>.." many Canadian kids learned about Budapest and Hungary. The books
were
>translated into many languages. Kati Rekai is now 76 years old, but
still
>very actively helping the Hungarian community with her found raising
>activities and weekly reports on cultural events in the Hungarian
language
>radio program in Toronto.
>
>Barna Bozoki

That's very interesting, Barna.  I didn't know Kati Rekai was a member of
this family.  Actually, I was looking at nursing homes, trying to get my
husband on the general waiting list, when I found the Rekai home, and in
the notes it said, "Hungarian".  I called them up for info, but was told
that it used to be Hungarian, but it isn't any more.

Agnes

In article >,
 says...
>
>On Sat, 8 Feb 1997, Joe Szalai wrote:
>>
>> I wasn't aware that there was a Hungarian language radio programme in
>> Toronto.  Other readers of this list may not know either.  Could you
please
>> give us the station name, and time, that it's on?
>>
>AM530 CIAO, Sundays 9-10 AM. Tel (416 635-6843)

And they are collecting now for starting a Hungarian TV station.

Agnes

In article >, 
says...
>
>Thank you for commenting on my letter.I agree with you,about confronting
>people,who are using there in ability to find there way in society,and
using
>racist or religious hatred.
>Sometimes I am tired of these.I had enough,I do not believe that they
can go
>any further,than finding an outlet in either Forum_Szabad or here in
"Hunagry"
>Istavn Lippai tried to disturb the peace.He found himslef incapable to
defend,so
>he turned to "Szabad" and asked for help,day after day.
>So far there are no takers,but if he wonders why some of us,maybe myself
>included write
>not so beautiful stories about Hungary,he can look at himself,and stop
>wondering.
>Even now the people in the old country are tearing themself
apart,instead of
>uniting,to look forward for a better future.
>It takes time to change,especialy when old communist are again directing
the
>future.
>I hope the best for them,but at the same time,I am extremly happy I do
not
>live there any longer.
>With regards:Andy.

Now, I agree with you completely!  Agnes

In article >, 
says...
>
>Agnes Heringer:I live in Canada.You assumption that this country is Nazi
is
>libel.
>I am not saying that Canada realy has done too much,about the world
>criminals,but that does not mean we are Nazis.Far from it.This Country
has
>the most peace loving people probably on earth.
>Even the Quebec question,with there separation,don't bring up any
thoughts
>of armed intervention.There is gun control,there is more safty here than
>definitly in the States.
>As a Canadian,Hungarian background,I can tell you,I hope it can never
>happen,what has happened and is happening in Hungary.
>This is not entierly anti Hungarian,just a comparison,so Lippai
shouldn't be
>able to say,the list Hungary is anti Hungarian.
>Best wishes:Andy

For God's sake, Andy, you completely misunderstood my message!  What I
wanted to say, that there are some idiots who keep trying to write stupid
messages, and if someone from another country would turn on to
soc.culture.Canada and read what WARHEIT is sending, would think this is
a nazi state!  I never said Canada was one, a Joisten aldja meg magat!
Olvassa el megegyszer, amit irtam, mielott felduhodik!

Agnes

Hugh Agnew wrote:

> The extract from the National Geographic publication that Johanne published,
> and the response to it (pardon me but I didn't note the contributer's name)
> show the pitfalls that everyone tends to fall into in generalizing, the
> more so when the generalizations have to be made in a few words.  I know
> the National Geographic tries to be as accurate as possible in what it
> publishes, having been asked to review text for some other article once
> upon a time.

My experience with the National Geographic is that their sociographies seem
to be written by the same guys who write about penguin colonies.  There is
usually very little awareness, and no reflection, of political nuances and
different opinions.  There was an article on Hungary back in the old days
of Kadarism that created the impression of a bucolic land of people with some
weird habits but basically happy as Larry under the guidance of the Party.

Obviously, not all of their reviewers are up to Hugh's standards, or perhaps
they take little notice of the political observations of the reviewers.

George Antony

Eva Balogh wrote:

>         And here is another personal experience which I found very moving.
> (Unfortunately such things happen only rarely!). I happened to be in Hungary
> during the Prague Spring events although the news of the final outcome
> reached me in the United States. One evening I was in a restaurant and at
> the next table there was a bunch of Slovak tourists. There was such a
> sympathy in Hungary toward Czechoslovakia at that time that a group of
> Hungarians at another table called the Gypsy and paid him to go to the
> Slovak table and play some typical Slovak songs.

Well, the Hungarians' sympathy with Czechoslovaks (as they were then) was
manifested in a number of ways after the crushing of the Prague Spring.

During the Summer of 1969 I was working in a volunteer construction brigade
(an opportunity for young people those days to get out of the family home,
have some appropriate cameraderie with people of both sexes in a relaxed
atmosphere and ingratiate ourselves with the Communist Youth Organization
with an eye on Brownie Points for university enrolment), roadbuiliding
near Szolnok on the Hungarian Plains.

On the suggestion of some bright spark, upon the appearance of Czechoslovak
tourist buses the whole brigade downed picks and broke into a rythmical chant
of "Dub-cek, Dub-cek !"  God only knows what the poor souls on the buses
thought, I hope they felt a little better for it.  It also showed how much
ideological impact the Party and the KISz (its youth organization) had on
young people.

George Antony

At 10:10 AM 2/10/97 +1000, George Antony wrote:

>Isn't it a wonderful irony how the most Hungarian Hungarians are murdering
>the mother tongue of their beloved nation ?   I haven't seen as much totally
>awfully messed-up Hungarian usage in my life as from the broad-culotted
>brigade on the various discussion groups.

        Yes, I find this most amusing also because one would expect someone
who feels as strongly about his fatherland as Mr. Lippai does to keep up
with Hungarian developments. And for that one needs to use the language.
However, I have the suspicion that Mr. Lippai hasn't done anything of the
sort in the last forty years: not just because his Hungarian is so poor but
because he doesn't seem to be aware of the fact that the country as well as
its inhabitants have changed a great deal in the last forty years.

        Eva Balogh