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On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, S or G Farkas wrote:
> >In our family it was sort of neat - both
> >my parents liking the lower leg (I can't fathom what's good about bones
> >and skin, but they do), while me taking all the drumsticks :-).
>
> I wonder when this was. When there wasn't enough to go around, mothers had
> the tendency to like legs and other parts with no meat on them. I clearly
> remember a period when my mother was never hungry around dinner time.

 Yeah, as I was growing older started to suspect that they were just
pretending to like the worst parts to leave the best for me ;-). But then
becoming older still I saw that they did develop this as genuine taste -
although perhaps it had to do with parental instinct unconsciously. In any
case, this was mostly in the seventies and then in the eighties too, and
as a matter of fact they could have anything they like; like I mentioned,
usually our chicken had several sets of both halves of legs and it
wouldn't have made much difference to buy the upper instead of the
lower...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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In article >,
 says...
>>Chicken feet is also a Chinese delicacy. I've eaten it in London's
>>Chinatown (as a several times guest of a Malaysian Chinese family)
>>usually as one of a long series of snacks (as a kind of brunch.)
>>It is surprisingly good. Can't say that I've ever had it as part of
>>an Hungarian course, though.

>You wouldn't be referring to "Dim Sum" by chance?  If so, it is one of my
>favourite ways of eating.  Come to think of it, duck feet in Hong Kong were
>widely offered during Dim Sum also.

Rings a bell...but talking Chinese cuisine really gets me going...golly,
the barbecued roast pork, that baked crab..the whole thing on the plate
(and having to use that shell cracker,) and really good Peking duck is hard
to beat, though I've yet to sample duck's feet. It's a bit misleading to
bracket it all just as *Chinese cuisine*, considering that it includes
a huge variety of different styles.

This brings me to an interesting point about the ingredients of Hungarian
food, (naturally dependent on prevailing borders, politics and economy)
and though some of my all-time favourite dishes are Hungarian (having
been brought up with it to some extent,) being a small land-locked
country recently meant that sea-food hasn't figured on the menu very
often in my experience of eating there, something I would find hard
to reconcile myself to, having gotten used to the British taste for
great varieties of sea-food (and the even better Mediterannean and
Chinese taste for sea creatures.) Freshwater fish from the Tisza just
doesn't cut it for me when lightly prepared in sea fish style. (I must
say though, the only place I've been able to afford real Volga Sturgeon
caviar was in Kadar's Hungary some time ago.)

Perhaps things are changing, though, because one of the best meals
I had in Budapest last year was an excellent fish soup [more like a
stew, really] in a restaurant near Moskva ter. I think that must have
been mainly freshwater fish, too, but it was really well cooked and
spicy (as would suit the heavy flesh of Tisza fish.)

To sign off this self-indulgent ramble.....could anyone used to living
by the coast (say in the Bay Area of California) go back to a purely
Hungarian diet without those HUGE Pacific scallops, tiger king prawns,
etc? Next time I'm in San Francisco I must make a point of doing some
serious shopping at the fish market there and preparing something really
special...right, Cecilia? :-)  One (very last) final muse: I wonder how
many gastronomes here regularly drink wine, in true Hungarian style, with
their evening and weekend meals?

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC

In article >,
 says...
>...By the way, Canada has provinces, not states.

Right, but *state education* is an expression used in Britain (which
has counties) to mean education funded by government and local authorities
(via taxes.)

<snip>
>>   ...(when she might learn to bullshit less transparently.)
>
>Do you not like her, George?

I'm not sure. I see in her a lot of things I see in myself..good and
bad, but she's just a bit too eager to shine and thinks it can be
achieved by persistently trying to diminish others, etc...how short
a step is it from there to spreading malicious rumours, or denouncing
one's neighbours or associates to the secret police, or planting a
bomb, etc?  That's the main reason I have a go at her now and again,
not as a personal hate thing, but rather as a *friendly* shout to
another person on the list to wake up and realize that we all really
love her (whether we all realize it or not) and that she doesn't have
to keep trying so very hard in the way she does..

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC

In article >, "Amos J. Danube"
> writes:

>   PS - Sam, it turns out  that you have  some decent  ancestry there
>              after all :-). Scrambled eggs and brain. Yum!!! And I am
>              serious about that!!!
>                                    Amos

And, yes, it is customary to leave the chicken's feet on it when you fry
it in the skillet in eastern North Carolina (although they don't sell it
in the store that way these days. It must take a tough man to mass market
a tender chicken with the feet still attached). Hard to find shoes that
will fit them, however.
Sam Stowe

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>Come on, Sam. Who is an anti-semite I am an apologist for,
>in the first place? Could you elaborate this as you trying
>to tie me up in your favorite (rather simple-minded) box?
>
>                                                 Sz. Zoli

NPA. I just love it when they get coy. Oh, and simple-minded boxes are
probably best for containing simple minds.
Sam Stowe

In article >, "Really
me myself, cross my heart!" Yet Note Well -- He Does Not Hope To Die If He
Is Lying! Thus the Question: Is It > or Is It Memorex?:

>The question is the inherent
>difficulty in connecting online personality with real-life one. While, at
>this point, I have reason to trust that you are indeed the same Sam Stowe
>I may find off-line - in principle the 'stowewrite' string does not say
>more, nor less, than 'jferengi' or 'mpflerr' or 'Szabo_III_Janos' or
>'Jeliko'. That JFerengi made a choice of writing under a pen name (and
one
>that reveals itself to be so, incidentally  <sznip> you may not have
found it out
>at all) should not be a factor in judging her/his/its posts.
>
We seem to have some disagreement about what constitutes signing one's
posts. You want to confine a discussion of signing to what's on the
message header. This totally overlooks the fact that many of us, yourself
included, post our real names in the body of our messages. And many of us,
yourself included, have not been taken in when a frequent flyer on this
list tries to worm his way back in using a pseudonym. I think it is
worthwhile in judging posts when someone makes controversial statements,
yet cannot seem to summon up the courage to put his or her real name with
them. I think it offers us important evidence of the poster's motivations
for making the post and for desiring to avoid public scrutiny for what he
or she has said in a public forum. Doesn't your local newspaper require a
signature before it will print letters to the editor? If so, you need to
call them up and raise hell with them just to maintain your intellectual
consistency.

>>[...]
>> If we take your position to its logical conclusion,
> {actually you're taking this to illogicality ;-(...}
>
>> then we should pay no attention to what anyone posts on the net.
> That is certainly one safe alternative ;-), albeit it doesn't follow.
>
>> Since one cannot be sure of any poster's identity,
> That's not quite true in this absolute form, but then it's not quite
>relevant this way either!
>
>>then one can never be sure of the veracity of anything posted.
> Well, if you assume veracity based on what you think of the poster's
>identity, then you're big trouble already. For me anything to be accepted
>as objectively true it should be independently verifyable, and preferably
>based on documented facts - if it is, then anyone can check it no matter
>who said what.
And independently verifiable, documented facts include attribution of who
said what. Otherwise we venture into the Cecilian Straits.
>
>> I take concept of the net as a public forum a little more seriously
>> than you do.                                              ^^^^^^^^^
> You mispelt "naively" above ;-(. I am all for the public forum. I am
>also for the concept of personal responsibility (have you verifyably
signed
>your digital writing yet, incidentally ;-)?), too. I just can't take
>seriously the idea that choosing one's username would have much to do
>with either!
This follows logically from your inability to take seriously anything else
that's said on the net and your unwillingness to critically scrutinize
what's served up to you for signs of authenticity. Either what happens on
here is real or it isn't. If you believe it is real, then you've been
arguing just to be contrary. If you believe it isn't, then what the hell
do you care? In either case, speaking of signs, you're showing signs of
desperation when you start reeling out spelling trolls. Is your customary
sang-froid losing a little of its mojo? Note that in your last sentence
here, you are once again confusing usernames with signing one's posts. If
you're determined to drag this conversation into some dim corner of
scholasticism, let's at least agree on what it is we're counting on the
head of that pin. And I haven't reached a sufficient level of paranoia and
technical expertise to either want to use PGP signatures or know how to
use it if I did. How about sending me some info on how to do it? You never
can tell when those black, unmarked helicopters will start circling over
the old homestead.
>
>>[twisted analogy of pseudo/anonimity with KKK]
> While I hate few things more than the USA-an tendency of dragging in the
>founding fathers on all occasions ;-(, I'm afraid that's just the thing I
>ought to commit here: are you saying those nameless discussions shaping
>the constitution were so bad as well?
How is it twisted, Zoli? What, do you think the Klansmen wear those sheets
because they look cool? They wear them to avoid public scrutiny of public
acts, just like people use pseudonyms on the net to avoid public scrutiny
of public statements. As far as I know, Jefferson and Madison never wore
sheets. And they probably had better luck with the ladies than your
average Klansman. There's a lesson in there somewhere, now that I think
about it. Anyway, those "nameless discussions" produced a final document
which was then publicly discussed and explained by the men who attended
the Constitutional convention.
>
>>[...] Problem is that once they get accustomed to
>> doing it virtually and getting away with it, the really scary ones will
>> think the same rules obtain in real life.
> Well, that's their problem; they would think just the same without the
>Net in any case, as history has shown hasn't it?
Once again, your statement leads me to believe that you have trouble
taking any of this seriously and are merely playing the devil's advocate.
The net serves the same function as any public forum like the Agora (Is
that the name of it?) in classical Athens. The twist is that given the
cost and technical expertise required to be a participatory netizen
(please forgive the neologism), this public forum is gonna inevitably be
skewed toward intellectual and economic elites. The ideas circulated on
here, then, have a much greater chance of actually finding their way into
use somewhere on a broad scale because the people who adopt them have the
money and the grey matter to make them a reality. "Their problem" then
becomes my problem, your problem, everyone else's problem.

> The fact is, as a practical matter 'stowewrite' does not assume any more
>responsibility than 'jferengi' does - so there, deal with it...
Once again, you drag in the narrow definition of username when I'm talking
about something entirely different. "So there, deal with it..."? That's
it? That's the best summation you can come to? Oh, well. Even Zoli Fekete
is entitled to an off day every now and then. And so many frownie faces to
boot!
Sam Stowe
>
>- --
> Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
>*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
>*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
>*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!
>
>
>
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>

In article >, "Barna L.
Bihari" > writes:

> A word of caution
>though, your last post fully qualifies as hate mail, as well as libel.
At
>my age a little mudslinging can be fun and good for my health, but
>unfounded nazi accusations ain't fair game no more.

Money talks and bullshit walks. Sue and be damned. Truth is an absolute
defense and we have that wonderful list of NPA's comments provided by
Gabor Farkas that no American jury will mistake for anything but
anti-semitism. And we have posts of yours dated after Mr. Farkas'
submission that show you still sparing no effort to second those views.
You want legal confirmation that you're a horse's ass? File suit. Wonder
how Rockwell likes having its server used to defend anti-semitism? I'll
bet they wish it was at least someone who was witty and intelligent. You
do have that strained, toadyish quality essential to all lackies of
authoritarianism.

>
>>would be receptive to your advances. On the other hand, you attempt to
>>stooge for Mr. Nemenyi, yet can't seem to provide the documentary
evidence
>>which would back up his claims and yours. And even when you take a few
>>extra megabytes to work on your flaming, it never rises much above
>You pathetic moron.  Eva Balogh just corroborated my first post on this
>thread (ask one of the eager translators to help you out).  Boy, don't
you
>feel like a fool's ass now.  As usual, you won't be man enough to admit
you
>were wrong in attacking me in the first place.  BTW, do you have any idea
>what (and how much) a megabyte is? :-)  No, it's not a TV program.:-)
>
>Barna Bihari
>
>PS. You're trying hard to conceal your insecurities, yet you're still
>getting too jealous.  Relax.  Noone is taking your Lyle away from you. I
>bet he'll even visit you in jail and sing you a Lyle'aby or two.:-)))
>
>PS2. But I have faith in you.  Even your cognitive disabilities can't
>forever keep you from realizing that I am no right-winger either.  In
>the meantime, you don't seem to need me to make an idiot out of you, you
>do a very nice job of it, all by yourself.
>
>
When did Lyle become such an object of desire for gay men? This guy is
damn near pathological in his lust for the poor chap. Next thing we know,
Barna's neighbors will be on the national evening new saying something
like, "Well, we always knew he kinda had a special thing for that funny
lookin' singer feller from Texas, but we never dreamed he'd carry it this
far!"
Sam Stowe

In article >, 
says...

>     Why do you have this urge to make a fool of yourself - publically?

Why do you have to be the leading member of the Eva Balogh adoration gang?

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC

In article >,  (JFerengi)
writes:

>You are boring beyond even my patience, Stowe. Go practice your little
>hate speeches on someone else.
>If you have something of merit to say, say it without resorting to
>invectives.People would be more likely to listen if you learned to
>moderate your shrill tones.
>
>As it is now, you have no credibility. You're doing a great job creating
>sympathy for Nemenyi.
>
>Calm down! Get a life! Show even one proof if you have any! Just one
would
>make me happy.
>
>Let the truth speak for itself.

Is this the point where we all put our hands over our hearts and sing "My
Country 'Tis of Thee"? The only sympathy Nemenyi has gotten so far is from
you and Barna Bihari. And I wouldn't bend over in close proximity to Barna
if I were you. Oh, and if I'm boring you, all you have to do is not post
these whining, cringing little sobs for pity directed at me. Grow up,
start signing your real name to your posts and pay attention to what
someone is advocating before you speak up in their defense. I see your ego
will still not allow you to admit that you are in bed (metaphorically
speaking at this point, but with Barna, who knows?) with some pretty
unsavory fellows. Sleep tight.
Sam Stowe

It is difficult to find words to describe my disappointment with
respect to the broadcasting of the Atlanta Olympic Games by NBC.
First, during the opening ceremonies, during the parade of athletes --
the highlight of the opening ceremonies  -- was frequently and
randomly interrupted by dull commercials that ignored many
participating nations including Hungary.  Furthermore, in favor of
something even more insipid than another Coca Cola commercial, the
team of Hungary, one of the greatest nations in Olympic history (third
among all nations at the Helsinki games for example), disappeared
between the cracks of Honk Kong and Iceland .

The team of Hungarian athletes, includes the youngest athlete ever to
win an Olympic gold medal in swimming, Krisztina Egerszegi.  Winner of
a silver and five gold Olympic medals, her achievements has been
unparalleled even by Janet Evans.  Miss Egerszegi could not be seen on
NBC because Mr. Charles Barkley was asked yet another time about his
foul intention to punch his opponents on the basketball court. I have
already seen the same scene on national television enough times to
have grown sick and tired of it.  Nonetheless, I and others have not
seen and will not see Ms. Egerszegi and the other outstanding
Hungarian athletes in the Olympic parade.

There may have been about 10,700 athletes in the Olympic parade,
making it impossible to appropriately expose every one of them, or
even the most outstanding ones.  However, there were 10,700 who would
have absolutely deserved more attention then Mr. Barkley. There are
few in the world of sport, amateur or professional, who represent the
antithesis of the Olympic spirit more obviously than this
unprofessional bully with a well publicized record of drunken bar
fights and obnoxious behavior on and off the court.  During the parade
of the US team, his uninspiring portrait appeared three additional
times, limiting the presentation of more deserving American athletes.


Commentators repeatedly harped on about Shaquille O'Neil's contract,
which has been covered well enough in other forms of media.  I
expected NBC, the exclusive holder of US broadcasting rights of the
opening ceremonies, to professionally introduce the parade of world
class athletes.  They fell short in accomplishing this task for which,
according to their own commercials, they have been preparing
themselves for a very long time.  Regrettably, NBC failed to procure
professional broadcasting talent and a true Olympic vision along with
these rights.  Thus, given the perfect pool of talent in the form of
almost 11,000 committed, trained, and dedicated athletes, NBC served
up fluff - doing both the athletes and the world-wide viewing audience
an enormous disservice.

A few more thoughts:

At the Olympics I find little excitement in watching the so-called
dream team winning yet another game by 60 points against obvious
underdogs, let alone listening to their polemics on paychecks,
contracts and on-court brutality.  When it comes to the Olympics, I
much prefer to watch sportsmen who fight hard but clean - the all
amateur US water polo team providing a good example of this.  So far I
have seen little evidence that NBC is interested in presenting much
more than a John Tesh-ified gymnastic exhibition featuring almost
exclusively American athletes, and obtuse "interviews" with, frankly,
dull individuals. This banal approach seems to prevail effectively -
resisting any and all influence of the true spirit of the Olympics.
It is a shame that such a meritorious event with an such an
extraordinary message has degenerated into nothing more than a
jingoistic, prime-time soap opera, appealing to no one and
disappointing many of those of us who eagerly anticipated celebrating
both the victories and defeats of the greatest athletes of our time.

Zsolt Vereczkey, MD.  
Thomas Porter, Ph.D.  

_JELIKO > wrote:

>>I always thought that  Nandor is the Hungarian version of
>>Ferdinand (Nandi) a la "Sandor."

> The early Arabic (Persian) sources also cite "nndr" in the
>neigborhood of the Hungarians (before their conquest of the carpathian
>basis). One problem about the names of tribal associations and tribes is
>that at times a whole tribal association became known by the name of the
>neighboring to the namegiver tribe. Thus we probably will never know if the
>Hungarians called all of the south Bulgarians Nandor or only one tribe.

Gardesi's chronicle supports more than one interpretation. Moreover,
in the same chronicle, for the same folk living next to the
Hungarians, more than one name is used, nndr being just one of the
variants. Anyhow, it will be interesting to share with us why do you
think that "nndr" is the Magyar name and not the Persian name for that
people ? Also, if I recall correctly, Gardesi's nndr were Christians,
a feature that comes to odds with the Volga Bulgars connection.

>The current Romanianized version of these Transylvanian
>communities is one indication that the locality name was taken via
>Hungarian into Romanian, because the Romanians had used a different name
>for the Bulgarians.

Or maybe the assumptions on which this hypothesis was constructed are
wrong.  BTW, the old popular Romanian name for Gyulafehervar (Alba
Iulia) is Ba~lgrad. No tranzition via Hungarian here, and the same
goes for many other place-names.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

Sam Stowe wrote:

>>Come on, Sam. Who is an anti-semite I am an apologist for,
>>in the first place? Could you elaborate this as you trying
>>to tie me up in your favorite (rather simple-minded) box?
                                                 Sz. Zoli
>NPA. I just love it when they get coy. Oh, and simple-minded
>boxes are probably best for containing simple minds. Sam Stowe

Mr. Szekey and I had more disagreement on  subjects  than I can
count them all. I don't  think  Mr. Szekely  was  defending  me
particularly. As I can see it, he was siding with the right for
free speech. If the defenders of free speech are single  minded,
than the box of yours will be a honorable place to be.

NPA.

> wrote:

>Money talks and bullshit walks.

Yes you are right. I wrote some articles on that. :-)

>Sue and be damned. Truth is an absolute defense and we have that
>wonderful list of NPA's comments provided by Gabor Farkas that no
>American jury will mistake for anything but anti-semitism.

I had no idea, that free speech is punishable by american court
system. It is news for me. Or is it only a wishful thinking on
some people's part?

>Wonder how Rockwell likes having its server used to defend anti-
>semitism?

Is it a warning for another round of reporting from a remailer
server?

NPA.

Just in case....

For those who do like mushrooms and are in Hungary, please DO NOT
purchase any mushrooms from the little peasant ladies at farmers markets
or roadside stands UNLESS they have a certificate from an authorized
mushroom inspector.

That is unsless you wish to be with Timothy Leary!

To continue along....it is an old English custom to take pheasants and
beef and age them by hanging it in the sun or a at times in a cool dry
place until a certain green color appears.  I did have the luxury of
going to one of the famous restaurants in NYC where the aged steak was
brought out to us and looked really  kind of grey and at places green
around the edges. They of course cut it down to the core, but it was good!
I don't know about the various fowl undergoing such treatment.


On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, JFerengi wrote:

> Talk about disgusting? I heard that some people, in the USA, would dangle
> a piece of horsemeat in a well till it turned green. They swear that the
> meat was tender and sweet after this procedure.
>

On Jul 30,  5:17pm, George Szaszvari wrote:
> Subject: Re: New Thread / Same Old Topic
> In article >, 
> says...
>
> >     Why do you have this urge to make a fool of yourself - publically?
>
> Why do you have to be the leading member of the Eva Balogh adoration gang?
>
> --
> George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
> Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC
>-- End of excerpt from George Szaszvari
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Jul 30, 12:35am, George Szaszvari wrote:
> Subject: Re: New Thread / Same Old Topic
> In article >,
>  says...
>
> Another question: aren't annual alumni contributions a complete red-
> herring to the argument?

     Why do you have this urge to make a fool of yourself - publically?
                                                                  Amos
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    George,

       If you read my note above carefully you will notice that I
    didn't even mention Eva's name.  So it is difficult for me to
    be the leader of her adoration gang.
       But I have objected  to your belittling  the importance of
    alumni contribution to  education in this country.  The least
    you could do is find out before  you use it as a tool of your
    attack on somebody.  But at least  you may use  the excuse of
    being on another continent. But what is Joe's excuse?
                                                            Amos

At 09:23 AM 7/31/96 -0400, you wrote:
>To continue along....it is an old English custom to take pheasants and
>beef and age them by hanging it in the sun or a at times in a cool dry
>place until a certain green color appears.  I did have the luxury of
>going to one of the famous restaurants in NYC where the aged steak was
>brought out to us and looked really  kind of grey and at places green
>around the edges. They of course cut it down to the core, but it was good!
>I don't know about the various fowl undergoing such treatment.

The only fowl I have heard of undergoing such would be duck, in preparation
for Peking Duck.  I understand that there is a requirement for hanging it
for several days, prior to marinating.

Regards,
Aniko

At 01:57 AM 7/31/96 GMT, George Szaszvari wrote, Re: Rare Delicacies (Was
disgusting food/A growing list)

>One (very last) final muse: I wonder how
>many gastronomes here regularly drink wine, in true Hungarian style, with
>their evening and weekend meals?

I don't.  When we have guests for dinner a bottle of wine *may* appear.  It
seems that most Canadians prefer beer, even during meals.

The last time I was in Budapest I overheard some wine bar staff lament the
fact that fewer Hungarians were drinking wine.  I don't know if this is true
or not but I've met some younger Hungarians at the University of Waterloo
and beer was clearly their choice of beverage.  I know that most people like
Canadian beer but was that the only reason they weren't drinking wine?

Joe Szalai

At 12:42 AM 7/31/96 -0400, Sam Stowe, in a response to Zoli Fekete, wrote:

>Doesn't your local newspaper require a
>signature before it will print letters to the editor? If so, you need to
>call them up and raise hell with them just to maintain your intellectual
>consistency.

My local newspaper require a signature before it will print letters to the
editor.  However, what pisses me off is that the editorials are not signed.
The French papers do it.  Why can't the English papers?  And, to be quite
honest, I don't know if the editorials in Hungary are signed.

Joe Szalai

At 03:03 AM 7/31/96 GMT, George Szaszvari, writing about whether or not he
likes Eva Balogh, wrote:

>I'm not sure. I see in her a lot of things I see in myself..good and
>bad, but she's just a bit too eager to shine and thinks it can be
>achieved by persistently trying to diminish others, etc...how short
>a step is it from there to spreading malicious rumours, or denouncing
>one's neighbours or associates to the secret police, or planting a
>bomb, etc?  That's the main reason I have a go at her now and again,
>not as a personal hate thing, but rather as a *friendly* shout to
>another person on the list to wake up and realize that we all really
>love her (whether we all realize it or not) and that she doesn't have
>to keep trying so very hard in the way she does..

I certainly admire her feistiness.  Too bad that many of her fans, on this
list, don't have that same quality.  If they did, this newsgroup would be
even better.  Instead, her fans get an upset tummy and cower whenever the
debates get rolling.  I think that Eva Balogh wouldn't mind if her fans were
a tad more assertive.  As it stands now, she has to take on fools, like you
and I, single-handedly.  It's just not fair!

Joe "I don't like Lyle Lovett at all" Szalai

At 12:01 AM 7/31/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak is back again and he wrote:

>Please, Andra's, get a life; if Eva's remark (showing a remarkable lack of
>judgement and being a plain affront to the memory of the thousands who died
>fighting communism) was "obviously ironic", why can't you dismiss mine as a
>mild quip?

        I don't know what Ferenc Novak did during the revolution, but I did
my share before, during, and after the revolution. Therefore, I don't need
lectures about my remarks being an "affront to the memory of the thousands
who died fighting communism)." I consider the Hungarian revolution, as I
said many, many times, one of the shining moments of Hungarian history. But,
at the same time, I will fight against those, like Ferenc Novak, who is
misinterpreting the origins and the events of that revolution.

        Eva Balogh

At 02:30 AM 7/31/96 GMT, Liviu wrote:
>_JELIKO > wrote:

>Or maybe the assumptions on which this hypothesis was constructed are
>wrong.  BTW, the old popular Romanian name for Gyulafehervar (Alba
>Iulia) is Ba~lgrad. No tranzition via Hungarian here, and the same
>goes for many other place-names.

        This is very, very interesting.

        Eva Balogh

At 09:42 AM 7/31/96 -0400, "Amos J. Danube" >, a
"PSEUDONYM", for sure, wrote:

>       If you read my note above carefully you will notice that I
>    didn't even mention Eva's name.  So it is difficult for me to
>    be the leader of her adoration gang.
>       But I have objected  to your belittling  the importance of
>    alumni contribution to  education in this country.  The least
>    you could do is find out before  you use it as a tool of your
>    attack on somebody.  But at least  you may use  the excuse of
>    being on another continent. But what is Joe's excuse?

1) I didn't belittle alumni contributions.  I contribute to my Alma Mater,
the University of Waterloo.

2) I believe that all post secondary education should be free to all those
who qualify.

Joe Szalai

Sam had it again:
> Zoltan Szekely > writes:
> >Come on, Sam. Who is an anti-semite I am an apologist for,
> >in the first place? Could you elaborate this as you trying
> >to tie me up in your favorite (rather simple-minded) box?
> >                                                 Sz. Zoli
> NPA. I just love it when they get coy.

Sam, I truly understand, that you are in emotional trouble.
You are greatly offended by my claims, that
 1. the Russian Revolution was wrong;
 2. the Bolsheviks were wrong;
 3. Ulyanoff was wrong;
 4. promoting violence in the labour movement is wrong;
 5. promoting any kind of violence in the society is
    deadly wrong.
These are not the claims, a proud revolutioner could
accept anyhow. Right, Sam?

Now, you try to dismiss my claims by explaning that I
am an apologist for anti-semitism. Good for you, that
you can heal yourself with magic words. I call it
intellectual lazyness, as you are not willing to make
any effort to look deep into the topic. You rather
involve yourself in duck-calling, which seems to be
the chief characteristic of this eloquent discussion
list.

> Oh, and simple-minded boxes are
> probably best for containing simple minds.
Look, Sam. I do not call you simple-minded. Just the
opposite. You're quite a complicated mind. But then
why on the Earth show you up your simple side only in
your postings?
                                             Sz. Zoli

At 04:58 AM 7/31/96 GMT, Zsolt Vereczkey wrote:

>It is difficult to find words to describe my disappointment with
>respect to the broadcasting of the Atlanta Olympic Games by NBC.

        I am in full agreement. Eaerlier Darren wrote something to the
effect that, after all, this is American broadcasting and what do we expect?
If one was living in Hungary one couldn't easily find out about the
achievements of the American athletes, said Darren. So far, so good but (1)
this doesn't mean that it is the best way of handling an international event
either here or in any other country, and (2) more important, NBC's
broadcasting is international in scope. The whole world is watching it and
it is extremely provincial of NBC to take such a narrow, nationalistic view
of the Olympics. Can you imagine what the Irish had to say about all those
baseless accusations of Michelle Smith because the American athlete failed
to qualify.


>At the Olympics I find little excitement in watching the so-called
>dream team winning yet another game by 60 points against obvious
>underdogs, let alone listening to their polemics on paychecks,
>contracts and on-court brutality.

        Yes, I am afraid that whole dream-team business is disgusting. It
is, as if the United States armed forces decided to attack Albania and, my
golly, the Americans won. Surprise!


        Eva Balogh

Liviu Iordache writes in resonse to my posting:

> >The now mainly Slav (icized)
> >Bulgarians were the ones who had control of the eastern half of Hungary
at
> >the time of the "Honfoglalas", as an example Csongrad is a known extant
> >Bulgarian stronghold at the time of the conquest. (At that time Serbia
was
> >centered further south than it is today).

> That's not what contemporary sources are saying (see DAI, Regnum
> Sclavorum, Bavarian Geographer, and many others).

OK, lets start with the DAI (I am using the Dumbarton Oaks edition of
Greek/English text)

Page 153: " ..Taking one half of the folk, claimed protection of Heraclius,
the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received them and
gave him a place in the province of Thessalonika to settle in, namely
Serbia.."

then they left for some reason to across the Danube but decided to return
and  "sent a request to the emperor Heraclius, through the military
governor the holding Belegrad, that he would grant them land to settle in.
And since what now is now Serbia and Pagania and the so called country of
the Zachlumi and Terbounia and the country of the Kanalites were under the
dominion of the emperor of the Romans, and since these countries haf been
made desolate by the Avars (for they expelled from these parts the Romani
who live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium), therefore the emperor dettled these
same Serbs in these countries, and they were subject to the emperor of the
Romans;"

Now, to me this indicates that they were south of the Belegrad area both
times after either arrival. As the DAI describes, soon thereafter Symeon
dispersed the Serbs all over the place and when with Byzantyn help they
reaasembled as indicated at the end of Ch 32 " "In baptized Serbia are the
inhabited cities of Destinikon,...etc." all of which are south of the
Danube area and do not include Belegrad. Please note that this occured
after the Hungarian arrival in the Carpathian basin. Chapter 33 thru 36
discusses other areas where descendents of the Serb also lived, all of
these are also further south of the Danube.

On page 40 the DAI lists the neighbors of the Hungarians (Turks) as:
Bulgarians, Pechenegs, Franks and Croats, but - sorry- no Serbs.

further on the DAI discusses where the Hungarians (Turks) live. "But the
Turks expelled by the Pechenegs, came and settled in the land where they
now dwell in. In this place are various landmarks of the olden days: first,
there is the bridge of the emperor Trajan, where Turkey begins; (that much
for the Anonymus legends) then three days journey from this same bridge
there is Belegrad, in which is the tower of the holy and great Constantine
,the emperor; then again at the running of the river, is the renowned
Sirmium by name, a journey of two days from Belegrad..." Now please note
these were landmarks in the area where the Turks now live.

Chapter 42 starts out "From Thessalonica to the river Danube, where stands
the city called Belegrad, is a journey of eight days, if one is not
traveling in haste but easy stages. The Turks live beyond the Danube river,
in the land of Moravia, but also on this side of it, between the Danube and
the Save river. From the lower reaches of the Danube river, opposite Distra
Patzinacia straches along..." again no Serbs in the area.

Other sources indicate that Belgrade came under Bulgarian control at the
beginning of the IX century and became controlled by the Hungarians only
after the XII century and was subject of several exchanges between the
Byzantine empire and Hungary until the collaps of Byzantine power in the
area.

That the Bulgarians were in the Carpathian basin before the Hungarian
arrival is diffcult to contest. Their wars started with the Franks in the
IX century and at times they have reached as far as upper Pannonia. See the
Royal Frankish Annales for  824, 825, 826, 827 and 828 as an example.
For more recent literature see Dvornik's works, Vasilevich and and Fine's
(?) two volumes on the early and medieval Balkans. (can't think of title
now and they are still in boxes after my move.)

Regards,Jeliko.

George Antony writes: (parts deleted)

> Durian you can look at, although better not breathe.

This reminded me of one of my experiences with Durian in Davao. After an
extensive drinking bout, one of the locals (who was driving) ordered
Durian. When I asked him why, he stated that if stopped by the police, he
will pass the breath test (which there is into the face of the policeman).
He claimed that he was always let go, rather than being subjected to the
test.

Regards,Jeliko.

Eva Balogh wrote:
>
>         If I recall properly, Bela Kadar was the man behind the "slow
> transition" theory. According to some commentators one reason for the MDF's
> victory (but not the only reason) was the promise of this slow transition
> which would be just the opposite of the shock therapy.
That's right. He lead the Ministry of International Connections,
and Antall trusted him to have authority above the finance
ministers. That's why Rabar, Kupa etc. had to go. Kadar identified
himself with national interest, in the eyes of the MDF, more
than the others.

> The voters believed
> that this would be a "painless" transition. Unfortunately, Bela Kadar's
> economic ideas couldn't ensure a painless transition.
Nobody talked about "painless transition" at the time. They talked
about avoiding unneccessary pains.

> As we know, Poland
> followed Jeffrey Sachs's shock therapy method and it seemed to have worked
> in Poland. Those opposing the shock therapy argue that Hungary was much more
> "advanced" along the lines of market economy than either Poland or
> Czechoslovakia and therefore "shock therapy" made no sense in Hungary. The
> "slow transition" was actually so slow that in three years the government
> envisaged only thirty percent of the state property privatized.
I do not see any problem with that. Shock therapy is a mere
theoretical idea, invented behind desks. In Poland there were
massive negotiations about the national debt. And moratoriums also.
In Hungary this approach is still a taboo.

>         As for Mr. Antall's virtues. He had many but economics was not his
> strong suit. He was a man of grand political ideas and was apparently bored
> by economics.
I'm afraid I can not get your point here!

Horn Gyula and Bill Clinton are professional economists, aren't?
Why is it so important for a Prime Minister to be an economist?
Many economists are overly narrow-minded and do not see anything
beyond their desks. Politics should be made by polititians and
not by specialists.

> The ancien regime died not a political death but an economic death.
You mean, the Soviet Empire in the Star Wars?

> Democracy if it wanted to be a popular idea in the minds of the
> people had to be successful economically.
No question about it. That's why Antall trusted Kadar more than
the theoretical guys, like Rabar.

> The problems of the new, democratic government were many, both
> political and economic but no political victory can be imagined without
> perceived economic growth. This economic growth has been alluding the
> Hungarian economy.
I can only repeat the views of the Polgari Szovetseg in Hungary:
the country was ready for growth in 1994.
                                                         Sz. Zoli

Arpi Rambo, a well known correspondent on the Forum, tried three
times to post the material here to HUNGARY but failed. He failed because he
doesn't seem to realize that one must subscribe to HUNGARY in order to post.
In any case, due to his inability to post this piece in HUNGARY, he decided
to publish it in the Forum, "tudvan hogy akiknek szol, ergus szemekkel
olvassak a mindennapi Forumot." [knowing that those to whom it is addressed
read (sic!)  the daily Forum with ergus (sic!) eyes.] Properly they "watch"
the Forum like a hawk. Because a lot of people actually is not reading the
Forum--they have sensitive stomachs--here it is.

        I must say Arpi Rambo is much more colorful in Hungarian. And his
grammar and vocabulary is also a tad better in his mother tongue.

>Obviously Farkas D. doesn't reads his cohorts' warnings.Such,as
>"to be a researching historian,one must be a trained one".However
>he argues about past history,pointing out,that this source is a good one,
>and that one is a bad one.Than he makes a remarkable job,looking up
>the Forum archives to prove,that NPA is a nazi,antisemite.And many,on
>this "civilized list" agrees,even without reading the Forum,because Farkas
>D. said so.The only problem with his research is,that NPA named his
>sources,and it can be found at any north american library,meaning it's
>not forbidden to publish,or to read.And he is short of explanations,regarding
>his quotations,like,what is antisemitic about the polish debt (half of it)
>being forgiven.Or why is it antisemitic to mention the infamous rabbi
>Landeszman,and why it's o.k. to agree with his blatantly anti-hungarian
>qutation,like "if it wasn't for us,there would nothing be left of the hunga-
>rian culture,but the apricot brandy (futyulos barack) and the bogatya(a
>hungarian folk-pant).Futher more,he "forgets" to quote other definitions,
>like antisemite,and nazi is anyone,who is not against the U.N.(Dr.Szy)
>And he "forgets'to mention the vicious attack on an elderly hungarian
>respected dentist by this lists' contributors,because this gentleman
>objected the present third reparations to hungarian jewry.And in this
>case,why is anybody a fascist,and nazi,whoever demanding equal
>rights,and equal laws to all citizens of Hungary,and nobody should be
>more equal,than others.Oh,yeah,I tried to prove that "analyst23' is wrong,
>e.g.that it's not true,that this "civilized list" is not blatantly
>anti-hungarian,
>and not spreading anti-hungarian hate mails.So I made some research
>too on some "civilized writers".The result is:zilch,nada,nix.Perhaps Farkas
>D.could help me,to quote himself,where he ever wrote favourably about
>Hungary,and the hungarians at.al.(It,s a better name of this "civilized list"
>to be called  "".)His latest grudge against hungarians,
>is that their stores was full of food-stuff,not like in Rumania,so it's pay-ba
c
>k
>time,because this food-stuff were bought by IMF-money.Well,for your infor-
>mation,this food-stuff were made in Hungary,so it didn't had to be bought
>from abroad.Maybe your dislike of the hungarian peasantry comes from
>the fact,that they  were working hard,instead listening every day to the
>"Genius of the Carpathians,the Great Conducator"s' idiotic speeches.
>But hell,it must be very boring to be on the accusing end on this accusation
>game.Because anything unproven can be brought up in this "civilized list",
>any mud-throwing,figer-pointing,baseless accusation is permittable,let's
>play the game:
>I have several e-mail to be sent:
>Sam Stowe"s wife:he is a cross dresser,actually he is wearing your underwear.
>A Kornai:he was seen sexually molesting the neighbours' underage daughter.
>Farkas D.:he is an agent of the Securitate,codenamed "Lup".
>Also I have an e-mail to Yale,with exact quotation,asking,if they share
>one of their employee's
>view,regarding anti-americanism,in which this named employee finds it digustin
g
>,
>that americans cheering fellow-american athletes,and vawing american flags on
>the olimpics.
>Also one to the Queensland (Australia)goverment.I,as an australian citizen
>protesting,
>that their computer is used spreading un-australian,commie propaganda on the
>Internet during working hours.Also I demand,that this person to be fired,and
>deported back to Hungary for anti-australian activity.
>So be it a hilarious fun.Let's see what it likes to be on the other side.And
>carry on
>your hilarious civilized back-stabbing.After all this is a free for all
>game,isn't it?
>
>The Rambo Arpi.
>

Two things concerning early Hungarian history.

        (1) A new book appeared this year in the series called "A
honfoglalasrol sok szemmel," as its second volume. The editor-in-chief of
the series is Gyorgy Gyorffy and the editors of this particular volume is
Laszlo Kovacs and Laszlo Veszpremy. The title is *A honfoglalaskor irott
forrasai.* Budapest: Balassi Kiado, 1996.

        (2) And this is a question addressed to Jeliko. Andras Rona-Tas's in
his article, "A magyar ostortenet hatterenek keleti torok (turk) forrasai,"
says the following in abbreviated form. Hungarian research on the sources of
early Hungarian history is actually behind international research. This was
already true one hundred years ago when the famous *Magyar honfoglalas
kutfoi" appeared. Here and there there were a few, isolated attempts to
catch up. Such attempt was the work of Mihaly Kmosko, which however remained
unfinished and "its larger, unpublished part was closed to even specialists
for a long time."

        Unfortunately Rona-Tas doesn't elaborate on this. Why should
research on the early history of Hungary be considered "forbidden, closed
material"? Do you know anything about this?

        Eva Balogh

> At 08:07 PM 7/30/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely wrote:
>
> >I guess it was another nationalistic act on the
> >part of NBC. They aired this footage of an
> >irresponsible American athlete from the past, and
> >celebrated him as a hero of the history of the
> >Olympic Games.
>
> What's your point?
>
> Joe Szalai

Look, this guy had a gold medal 2 Games earlier. That's fine.
I just don't understand why is more important now, in 1996 to
bore people with an out-dated footage about an irresponsible
American 'hero', than showing the actual contest.

The reporter noted about the Chinese gold medal winner,
something like that 'look, who would have thought that, when
this China-men got the silver behind Louganis'. He was
completely indulged in the 'glory of the past' in order to
cope with the disappointment after no American won the
gold medal this time. It sounded as kinda belittling the
achievement of this Chinese athlete.

This kind of behavior on the side of the NBC reveals some
patterns to me. Maybe the NBC's reporters think about the
athletes belonging to other nations as mere surroundings and
background scenes for the glory of American contestants.

It is hard to get away with this. It is cultural nationalism
at it worst. It is chauvinism.
                                                   Sz. Zoli

Eva Balogh cites and writes:
> At 02:30 AM 7/31/96 GMT, Liviu wrote:
> >_JELIKO > wrote:

> >Or maybe the assumptions on which this hypothesis was constructed are
> >wrong.  BTW, the old popular Romanian name for Gyulafehervar (Alba
> >Iulia) is Ba~lgrad. No tranzition via Hungarian here, and the same
> >goes for many other place-names.

>         This is very, very interesting.

One of recent concise description of the site is in "Korai Magyar
Tortenelmi Lexicon" Editor Kristo Gyula, Akademia 1995. It also mentions
the Ba~lgrad use. It is no wonder that some of the term survived , in the
Calea Motilor 83 area a 1,700 grave site from Bulgarian times have been
found with many lower Danube artifacts. That size cemetery indicates a
fairly large population. The village apperared to have been burnt in the
first half of the X century and in the ruins of one house a mounted
Hungarian grave have been found. Even parts of the Roman ruins consists of
white stones.

In spite of the common Ba~lgrad name, it is nice that the Romanian govt.
decided to keep the name Iulia (from Gyula). There is no reason for the
Hungarians always to complain.

Regards,Jeliko

>At 03:03 AM 7/31/96 GMT, George Szaszvari, writing about whether or not he
>likes Eva Balogh, wrote:
>
>>I'm not sure. I see in her a lot of things I see in myself..good and
>>bad, but she's just a bit too eager to shine and thinks it can be
>>achieved by persistently trying to diminish others, etc...how short
>>a step is it from there to spreading malicious rumours, or denouncing
>>one's neighbours or associates to the secret police, or planting a
>>bomb, etc?  That's the main reason I have a go at her now and again,
>>not as a personal hate thing, but rather as a *friendly* shout to
>>another person on the list to wake up and realize that we all really
>>love her (whether we all realize it or not) and that she doesn't have
>>to keep trying so very hard in the way she does..
>
>I certainly admire her feistiness.  Too bad that many of her fans, on this
>list, don't have that same quality.  If they did, this newsgroup would be
>even better.  Instead, her fans get an upset tummy and cower whenever the
>debates get rolling.  I think that Eva Balogh wouldn't mind if her fans were
>a tad more assertive.  As it stands now, she has to take on fools, like you
>and I, single-handedly.  It's just not fair!
>
>Joe "I don't like Lyle Lovett at all" Szalai
>
>Joe:don't forget something,we are lurking in the background,but as you
stated at least me,1.don't have the background to cite all books and
statement etc.
on the other hand for me it it not worth while to be called stupid or
ignorant,since I do not have acadamic background.
Do not missundersatnd me,none of the academic are superiour.No such luck.
You can study and read and quote from head all what they want.I still remain
a human being who do not enjoy reading anything wich is racist or minimising
other persons knowledge.
I am proud to have my life as I lived it,and in my retierement will not
fight with some people who had there mind made up,and nothing will detour
them from this.As far as I am concerned in one way we give an open platform
to those,and on the other hand we can not stay quiet.
I chose the later,and occasionaly say what is on my mind.
Andy.

>At 04:58 AM 7/31/96 GMT, Zsolt Vereczkey wrote:
>
>>It is difficult to find words to describe my disappointment with
>>respect to the broadcasting of the Atlanta Olympic Games by NBC.
>
>        I am in full agreement. Eaerlier Darren wrote something to the
>effect that, after all, this is American broadcasting and what do we expect?
>If one was living in Hungary one couldn't easily find out about the
>achievements of the American athletes, said Darren. So far, so good but (1)
>this doesn't mean that it is the best way of handling an international event
>either here or in any other country, and (2) more important, NBC's
>broadcasting is international in scope. The whole world is watching it and
>it is extremely provincial of NBC to take such a narrow, nationalistic view
>of the Olympics. Can you imagine what the Irish had to say about all those
>baseless accusations of Michelle Smith because the American athlete failed
>to qualify.
>
>
>>At the Olympics I find little excitement in watching the so-called
>>dream team winning yet another game by 60 points against obvious
>>underdogs, let alone listening to their polemics on paychecks,
>>contracts and on-court brutality.
>
>        Yes, I am afraid that whole dream-team business is disgusting. It
>is, as if the United States armed forces decided to attack Albania and, my
>golly, the Americans won. Surprise!
>
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
>Are we canadians lucky.CBC is worth watching.It is true it shows more
canadian content,but at least show some other ones also.Don't forget at
opening ceremonies not only the Hunagarians were left out but the canadians
also.Luckily that wa the time when I switched to CBC,and I completly boycot NBC
.
Andy.

At 01:42 PM 7/31/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:

>>         As for Mr. Antall's virtues. He had many but economics was not his
>> strong suit. He was a man of grand political ideas and was apparently bored
>> by economics.
>I'm afraid I can not get your point here!
>
>Horn Gyula and Bill Clinton are professional economists, aren't?
>Why is it so important for a Prime Minister to be an economist?
>Many economists are overly narrow-minded and do not see anything
>beyond their desks. Politics should be made by polititians and
>not by specialists.

        Gyula Horn is sure no economist in spite of his so-called degree in
"finances," from Rostov-on-the-Don. He knows next to nothing about
economics. And, yes, Bill Clinton is no economist either. But there is a one
huge difference between Horn and Clinton. Horn made stupid economic mistakes
in the first year of his administration, listening to such illuminaries as
Laszlo Pal (see the Hungarhotel case), undermining his first finance
minister to such an extent that he resigned, and managing to undermine his
second finance minister to the point that he also resigned. He keeps
listening to his friends on the left of his party when it comes to economic
decisions. On the other hand, Bill Clinton picked a very able team of
economists and financial experts and he leaves them alone to do their job.
In addition, he inherited a very able head of the Federal Reserve, who is an
independent player.

        Antall didn't have to know much economics but he had to listen to
the right advice and act accordingly. He didn't.

>> The ancien regime died not a political death but an economic death.
>You mean, the Soviet Empire in the Star Wars?

        This is not worth answering.

>> Democracy if it wanted to be a popular idea in the minds of the
>> people had to be successful economically.
>No question about it. That's why Antall trusted Kadar more than
>the theoretical guys, like Rabar.

        All very nice, except it didn't save his government from total
defeat at the next elections. The Hungarian people were not impressed with
the work of the "pragmatic," as opposed to theoretical, Mr. Kadar.

        Eva Balogh

After reading Apri Bamby's post I feel kinda hurt and left out.  What does
one have to do to get on his list?

Joe Szalai

"Rambo isn't violent. I see Rambo as a philanthropist."
                          Sylvester Stallone

At 02:00 PM 7/31/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely  wrote:

>Look, this guy had a gold medal 2 Games earlier. That's fine.
>I just don't understand why is more important now, in 1996 to
>bore people with an out-dated footage about an irresponsible
>American 'hero', than showing the actual contest.

I don't have a problem with your criticism of the TV coverage of the
olympics.  What I don't understand is why you keep calling the American
athlete "irresponsible".  Surely it wasn't his idea to show the old footage.

Joe Szalai

apologies if this is not the right newsgroup
We are a British family and would like a Hungarian au pair to look
after our two childrenb age 13 and 14. Our previous au pair was
Hungarian and a great success.
Is there a "right" place on the net to post this??


Thanks

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote [quoting the idiot-de-jour on Forum]:
> olvassak a mindennapi Forumot." [knowing that those to whom it is addressed
> read (sic!)  the daily Forum with ergus (sic!) eyes.] Properly they "watch"
> the Forum like a hawk. Because a lot of people actually is not reading the
> Forum--they have sensitive stomachs--here it is.

 But Eva, many of us just don't read that because there are more pleasant
ways of taking our daily allowance of crappy dreck, if we wish to take
some. Please try to judge a little less liberally what may be necessary to
bring over here - this piece I fail to see any value or need for ;-<...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Andy Kozma wrote:
> >Are we canadians lucky.CBC is worth watching.

 The Boston Globe mentioned criticizing NBC's coverage (following the
gymnastic women's team competition, which had been showed with some 5
hours delay to USA viewers) that patrons in some bars around here rather
watched the Canadian broadcast - that way they saw superior commentary and
real-time coverage too.

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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Joe Szalai asked me:
>
> I don't have a problem with your criticism of the TV coverage of the
> olympics.  What I don't understand is why you keep calling the American
> athlete "irresponsible". Surely it wasn't his idea to show the old footage.
Irresponsible in the sense that he almost infected,
inadvertandly, his own medical helper ('gyuro' in
Hungarian) with HIV.

As I heard, when he got his infamous head injury,
he decided not to inform his helper about the
possibility of contacting HIV from his (Louganis')
head injury. And he let his blood flow into the
pool, where other athletes also jumped into.

If it is not irresponsibility, then what is
irresponsibility!?
                                         Sz. Zoli

I agree with you Zoltan. Perhaps "Crazy" Jose Szalai has a problem with
that in that apparently HE does not know the meaning of responsibility.

On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Zoltan Szekely wrote:

> Joe Szalai asked me:
> >
> > I don't have a problem with your criticism of the TV coverage of the
> > olympics.  What I don't understand is why you keep calling the American
> > athlete "irresponsible". Surely it wasn't his idea to show the old footage.
> Irresponsible in the sense that he almost infected,
> inadvertandly, his own medical helper ('gyuro' in
> Hungarian) with HIV.
>
> As I heard, when he got his infamous head injury,
> he decided not to inform his helper about the
> possibility of contacting HIV from his (Louganis')
> head injury. And he let his blood flow into the
> pool, where other athletes also jumped into.
>
> If it is not irresponsibility, then what is
> irresponsibility!?
>                                          Sz. Zoli
>

Its elementary logic:
                              1) a signature does not guarantee the truth
of any statement

                              2) a non signature does not signify non
truth

                              3) signatures are not always verifiable

                              4) a rose by any other name ......blah,
blah, blah

                              5) maybe we should discuss how many angels
dance on the                                      head of a pin

Perhaps you need to reread my posts if you dont understand them. You are
the one who is to be pitied for living in your little gloomy room filled
with hate.

Liviu Iordache writes:
> _JELIKO > wrote:

> >One of recent concise description of the site is in "Korai Magyar
> >Tortenelmi Lexicon" Editor Kristo Gyula, Akademia 1995. It also mentions
> >the Ba~lgrad use. It is no wonder that some of the term survived , in
the
> >Calea Motilor 83 area a 1,700 grave site from Bulgarian times have been
> >found with many lower Danube artifacts. That size cemetery indicates a
> >fairly large population. The village apperared to have been burnt in the
> >first half of the X century and in the ruins of one house a mounted
> >Hungarian grave have been found. Even parts of the Roman ruins consists
of
> >white stones.

> The ability of Hungarian archaeologists to identify one Hungarian
> grave among other 1,700 Bulgarian graves is as good as the ability of
> Romanian archaeologists to identify several Daco-Roman graves within a
> sea of purely Dacian ones ;-)

Well, next to the Slavic (Bulgarian ?) cemetery, there is a 500 grave
Hungarian cemetery also so one grave does not have bring resolution.
However, when a grave is sunk into the remnants of a dwelling, it does
assist in timing the grave and the dwelling.


> >In spite of the common Ba~lgrad name, it is nice that the Romanian govt.
> >decided to keep the name Iulia (from Gyula). There is no reason for the
> >Hungarians always to complain.

> I'm sure the Romanian government decision, if it really ever came to
> such a decision, had nothing to do with the Hungarian complains.
> Anyhow, concerning the Gyula--->Iulia derivation, I for one prefer to
> confess ignorance. However, I am amazed by the versatility with which
> certain scholars seem to handle linguistic questions according to
> their own prejudices (e.g., Gyula--------->Iulia or
> Gyula--------->Gelou)

I hope I do not have to use smilies for you to indicate sarcasm in
either direction. I respect your professional style and your use of
sources, even if we disagree on some interpretations.

> Any other interesting derivations from Gyula one should be aware of ?

Yes, that was my name before I anglicised it; and beware I am half
Transylvanian, but I did not stay to become Gelou.

Regards,Jeliko.

Liviu Iordache writes:
> _JELIKO > wrote:

> >> >The now mainly Slav (icized)
> >> >Bulgarians were the ones who had control of the eastern half of
Hungary
> >> >at
> >> >the time of the "Honfoglalas", as an example Csongrad is a known
extant
> >> >Bulgarian stronghold at the time of the conquest. (At that time
Serbia
> >> >was
> >> >centered further south than it is today).

> >> That's not what contemporary sources are saying (see DAI, Regnum
> >> Sclavorum, Bavarian Geographer, and many others).

> >OK, lets start with the DAI (I am using the Dumbarton Oaks edition of
> >Greek/English text)

> >further on the DAI discusses where the Hungarians (Turks) live. "But the
> >Turks expelled by the Pechenegs, came and settled in the land where they
> >now dwell in. In this place are various landmarks of the olden days:
first,
> >there is the bridge of the emperor Trajan, where Turkey begins; (that
much
> >for the Anonymus legends) then three days journey from this same bridge
> >there is Belegrad, in which is the tower of the holy and great
Constantine
> >,the emperor; then again at the running of the river, is the renowned
> >Sirmium by name, a journey of two days from Belegrad..." Now please note
> >these were landmarks in the area where the Turks now live.

> Why did you stop here?

> " ...and beyond [i.e. above the these landmarks] lies megale Moravia,
> the unbaptized, which the Turks have blotted out, but over which in
> former days Sphendoplokos used to rule. Such are the landmarks along
> the Ister river."

OK but let's add the continuation of the sentence "but the regions above
these, which compound the whole settlement of Turkey, ..." So above these
what happened to the Moravias which he called earlier no the north of the
Turks, but forgets them by page 179 when he lists the neighbors of the
Turks.

I am aware of your (and several other) interpretation of the confusing text
of the DAI regarding the "Moravias". But I just plain believe based on the
same sources, that Porphyrogenitus (or whoever he was copying or whoever
wrote parts of his text) was rather confused in this aspect. He states in
places that the baptized Moravians were under Svatopluk and south of the
Hungarians, in other places he puts Svatopluk at the head of the
"unbaptized Moravians" and puts them north of the Hungarians as it your
above citation. The western chronicles are fairly clear in Svatopluk and
his folks christianity. Both the DAI and the western sources are clear that
Kocil (Kotsilis) was ruling in western Pannonia as a fief of the Franks and
was killed fighting the Croats. So there was no Svatopluk rule in the
region just north of the cited region (there is just not enough space there
for any "megalia". The DAI also states in different palces that the Turks
when they came in destroyed great Moravia while in others that after they
were there and Svatopluks children started fighting then the Turks attacked
and destroyed them, which we know from many sources occured later. At the
time when the DAI states that where the "Turks live today" there was no
longer any megali or non-megali Moravia. Thus on p173 ""came and inturn
expelled the inhabitants of great Moravia and settled in their land, in
which the Turks live to this day"  on page 177 he gives your above quote
for the location of the unbaptized great Moravia to the north of the Turks,
which the Turks have blotted out out but over which in former days
Sphendoplokos used to rule; by page 179 he forgot that previously he had a
Moravian neighbor for them and on page 181 he has Moravians escaping to the
Turks from the Turks and on page 183 he has the Turks living at and just
above the Danube where Moravia used to be. I am sorry but it reads like a
US highschool students description of central European geography. Obviously
the Byzantines were peripherially aware of the Moravians, but were not up
to snuff on the internecine wars of the Moravians or clear about the
loyalties of the Pannonian region to the Franks. They also knew that the
Hungarians were in the region where the Moravians were, so he guessed where
they were as a matter of fact he guessed them in several places. I mean it
would have been embarrasing to misplace a megali country and not weave it
into the story somewhere. Besides it was a good "lesson" for the younguns
not to fight among themselves or they may follow Svatopluk' children's
faith. Please belive me he was not the first and the last one to pull
similar boners.


> It follows that the one having control over the eastern half of
> Hungary, at the time of Honfoglalas,  was not the Bulgarian czar but
> Sventopolk and/or his inheritors. And the other paragraphs confirm the
> same thing.

> >That the Bulgarians were in the Carpathian basin before the Hungarian
> >arrival is diffcult to contest.

> Yes, but those are the Pannonian Onogurs-Bulgars, who arrived there in
> the 2nd half of the 7th century, not Asparuch's Danubian Bulgars.Let's
> see what Simon de Keza says:

Well again referr to the RFC for the distinction of Bulgars and the
indication is that surely it was not the second wave of the Avars (or Avar
related) folks they are talking about.

> At the end there rose a Prince in Poland [i.e. Pannonia] by the name
> of Svatopluk, who was Marot's son [c.f., Anonymus' Men-Marot, the one
> with the Bulgarian heart,  whose grandfather was Marot], and who after
> conquering Bratka, ruled over Bulgarians and the Messinians [i.e.,
> inhabitors of Upper Moesia].

Gee, I never said that Kezai or Anonymus were any better than
Porphyrogenitus. How come the Byzantine historians were not aware of this
event, it was taking place in their backyard, or was it? Although, some of
those were also pulling good ones. My favorit is the one who claimed that
the Trojans were Bulgarians, wait till the Bulgarians catch onto that one.

Sorry, but I have to go back to work, otherwise somebody will report me to
the boss.

Regards,Jeliko.

Eva Balogh writes:
>         Two things concerning early Hungarian history.

>         (1) A new book appeared this year in the series called "A
> honfoglalasrol sok szemmel," as its second volume. The editor-in-chief of
> the series is Gyorgy Gyorffy and the editors of this particular volume is
> Laszlo Kovacs and Laszlo Veszpremy. The title is *A honfoglalaskor irott
> forrasai.* Budapest: Balassi Kiado, 1996.

Thanks a lot, I am always looking for more compilation of this type. It is
a bother to continuosly go back to individual tomes and magazine
publications.


>         (2) And this is a question addressed to Jeliko. Andras Rona-Tas's
in
> his article, "A magyar ostortenet hatterenek keleti torok (turk)
forrasai,"
> says the following in abbreviated form. Hungarian research on the sources
of
> early Hungarian history is actually behind international research. This
was
> already true one hundred years ago when the famous *Magyar honfoglalas
> kutfoi" appeared.
I have a reprint of the above book and it is certainly not complete in
Arabic, Slavic, or even western sources and a more complete version would
(or maybe will) be helpful.

> Here and there there were a few, isolated attempts to
> catch up. Such attempt was the work of Mihaly Kmosko, which however
remained
> unfinished and "its larger, unpublished part was closed to even
specialists
> for a long time."

Kmesko's work (while still incomplete) was better than the earlier ones,
his manuscript was languishing for a long time and at times excerpts from
it were used in other books or documents. Who knows, under some of the
regimes we were "blessed" with in our recent past why it was politically
not popular although the eastern writers were referring several times how
the Hungarians (Turks) were riding roughshod over the Russians and other
Slavs, so it is possible that the reason was in the contents and not in the
author. But who knows?

>         Unfortunately Rona-Tas doesn't elaborate on this. Why should
> research on the early history of Hungary be considered "forbidden, closed
> material"? Do you know anything about this?

See above.

Regards,Jeliko

In article >,
 says...
>
>At 01:57 AM 7/31/96 GMT, George Szaszvari wrote, Re: Rare Delicacies (Was
>disgusting food/A growing list)
>
>>One (very last) final muse: I wonder how
>>many gastronomes here regularly drink wine, in true Hungarian style, with
>>their evening and weekend meals?
>
Well, I am afraid I have to confess to being partial
to all kinds of alcoholic beverages. I must even admit
that I drink wine with every evening meal (perhaps more
than I should . . . I mean, doctors say that a small
glass or two is drinking in moderation . . . I am afraid
that's not drinking at all . . . :-) The best wines I
have ever had were Hungarian wines in Hungary, not
"palackozott," however, but straight out of barrels in
those lovely, cool wine cellars . . . In the US, I drink
California varietals. Either these have improved (for I
seem to like them now) or my taste has been completely ruined . . .

Cheers,
Steven C. Scheer

Repeating for the final time, hopefully. During the past month you have
not offered even one shred of proof about any of your allegations Re NPA,
Stowe.
     I challenged you to offer even one prooof. Your response is to attack
like a rabid dog. What am I to conclude? I repeat my challenge. Offer even
one well thought out proof, or shut up ( your favorite phrase).

     So far, you have accused me of

                            1) supporting antisemitism

                            2) having homosexual tendencies

                            3) using a pseudonym for nefarious purposes

    Are these examples of your brilliance?  Are you to be trusted at all?
How can anyone believe anything you post?
You are "hung by the tongue". Your own words of hate uncover what you
really are,
a sad person.

                                            Best Wishes