You guys would love an eastern North Carolina pig-picking, even if most of
the nasty innards never make it onto the grill. There's nothing better
than crackling (pig skin cooked to a crisp) straight from the guest of
honor itself. If anybody ever organizes a Tanchaz this side of Washington,
D.C., I'm going to get legendary North Carolina barbecue cook Jerry Hart
to cater it. Reading this thread has been interesting, if extremely
unappetizing. Most of the stuff you guys reminisce about fondly we use to
chum up bluefish off the Surf City pier. The head cheese thing, though,
reminds me of watching my grandfather and dad scramble eggs and hog brains
together in a skillet. Absolutely revolting! The only thing that came even
close to that was watching the two of them eat sardines packed in heavy
oil straight out of the can. And haven't Hungarians ever heard of pickled
pig's feet? God, these are memories I could have done without dredging
up...
Sam "Oh, yeah and beef tongue...they eat that down here too" Stowe

"C'mon, honey, think about
it -- a jet engine, a riding lawn
mower...Someone was bound
to put 'em together eventually..."
-- Tim "The Toolman" Taylor

In article >,  (JFerengi)
writes:

>I am not looking to
>fight with you. I would really like to see the discussions focus on facts
>and not on personalities. If I was unclear, I apologize.
>
>Best Wishes

Mayhap you'd be better off trying to do just that in the future. A simple
"excuse me, I jumped into this thread before I realized what was going on"
would have sufficed. You got caught on the wrong side of the line and you
don't like being called to account for it. Cowardice is one thing, bubba,
but promoting anti-semitism is another degree of malice aforethought
altogether. Still not using your real name, I see. You must like the way
that sheet fits over your point, ineducable little head.
Sam Stowe

"C'mon, honey, think about
it -- a jet engine, a riding lawn
mower...Someone was bound
to put 'em together eventually..."
-- Tim "The Toolman" Taylor

How about this?
Dear NBC,

     Hungarians all over the world take great pride in their heritage of
strong performance in the
Olympics. Perhaps, Hungary's tragic history causes its people to
desperately clutch at Olympic
performance as one way to grab at a little pride and happiness.
     After the Mongol invasion, Hungarians lost the bulk of their
population. 400 years later, the
Turks invaded Hungary and enslaved it for 150 years. Once again the
population was
devastated. Germany  and Austria forced Hungary to serve in WWI, after
which Hungary lost
2/3 of its territory. After WWII, Hungary lost  large parts of its
homeland and population. Then,
for 40 years Hungary was enslaved by Soviet domination.
     Can you blame them for seeking their small spot in the sun?
     No doubt, you did not intend to hurt anyone, but many people felt
slighted when, during the
opening ceremonies, you cut away just as Hungary was entering the stadium.
The reason I know
this is because I communicate with many people on the Internet.
     Hungary  was one of the original 14 nations in the first Olympics 100
years ago.
     Hungary has consistently scored high enough to belie the small size
of the country.
     I know it is hard to change programs at this late stage, but you
could make a lot of people
happy with NBC and its sponsors with even a small nod in the direction of
Hungary.
1996 is the 40th anniversary of the Hungarian Revolt against Soviet
oppression.
1996 is also the 1,100th anniversary of Hungarians settling in the
Carpathian Basin.
Perhaps you could give a running total of medals won by each country over
the last 100 years.

                                                             Thank you for
your consideration,

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>"I think a lot of gay people who are not dealing with their homosexuality
>get into right-wing politics."
>                              Armistead Maupin

Hey, Joe -- he's a good, old Raleigh boy! And duly honored as such, I
might add.
Sam Stowe

"C'mon, honey, think about
it -- a jet engine, a riding lawn
mower...Someone was bound
to put 'em together eventually..."
-- Tim "The Toolman" Taylor

I remembered an old Steve Martin routine wherein, someone in a restaurant
asks Steve, "Mind if I smoke?" and Steve answers, "Mind if I fart?"

So, as I was sitting in a Holiday Inn restaurant, after years of waiting
to use this funny line, finally, someone asked me the fateful question. I
couldn't believe my good fortune. I quickly shot back, "Mind if I fart?",
only to be abashed as I looked at the gentleman who looked stunned as he
removed his overcoat revealing his Roman collar.

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>What I know is that, you guys, here in this list, are in bad need
>in the boxing game. You're just not happy until you don't tie up
>everybody into a nice, body-fit box. I'm sorry, man, this game
>is not form me. I'm not a box guy.                       Sz. Zoli
>
>

All of which begs the question -- why are you an apologist for an
anti-semite? Cut out the defensive crap and answer the question.
Sam Stowe

"C'mon, honey, think about
it -- a jet engine, a riding lawn
mower...Someone was bound
to put 'em together eventually..."
-- Tim "The Toolman" Taylor

These are two different locations.  Debrecen is in Hajdu'-Bihar county
while Debrecseny is in No'gra'd.  According to Lajos Kiss, Debrecen's
name may be a derivative of a Turkic word (Debresin, Tebresu:n) meaning
"move, live).  Debrecseny on the other hand seems to have a Slavic
origin (Dobrcin, Dobricany) and the author does not provide meaning for
this term. However, anybody somewhat familiar with Slavic languages, can
tell that the Dobri- means "good", and anyone more competent in Slavic
languages than myself (ca. 99.999999% of world population), can find out
the meaning of the second syllable.  I would be interested...

Best,
Arjun Sabharwal
The University of Michigan

What do you mean by "Slavicized Bulgarian"?  To me the phrase seems to
mean that Bulgarian was something other than Slavic before it was
Slavicized.

Otherwise yes, it seems quite possible (to oversimplify) that Magyars
moving north from Serbian or Bulgarian linguistic areas and having learned
there that the common Slavic word "grad" means a fortified castle on a
hill etc, would recognize that word in the Slovak area "hrad" and thus
understand Vysehrad and take it into Magyar as Visegrad.  My original
point was that it seemed to me unlikely that Serbian Belgrad would be
carried north to explain and translate the local name Vysehrad in the
Slovak area.  (As it seems unlikely that the Polish galuska would be
carried south to the Low Tatra sheep pastures to explain the local term
halusky.)


Norma Rudinsky



On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, _JELIKO wrote:

> Norma Rudinsky writes:
> > At the time of Hungarian arrival in central Europe, there wasn't really a
> > set of DISTINCT Slavic languages, such as Slovak for Vysehrad and Serbian
> > for Belgrad, from which Magyar would take and/or adapt place names.  But
> > it is still (to me) most likely that borrowing occurred from the nearest
> > local name instead of the borrowed name "spreading" around the country.
>
> The  grad ending appears to have been derived from the by then Slavicized
> Bulgarian.
>
i> Regards,Jeliko
>

Dear All,

Reading some of your -- understandable -- concerns about over-coverage
of the NPA case, I must remind you of the reasons why it is such a
significant affair, independent of the victim's person:

1. (Possible) list members, reported NPA to his workplace.
2. NPA lost his job because of it.  To my knowledge, unprecedented.

WE MUST PREVENT SUCH REPORTING INCIDENTS FROM EVER HAPPENING AGAIN.

To do this, we have to find out exactly what happened.  I fully agree
that not all posts are of interest to all, myself included.  The Nemenyi
case is NOT a soap-opera, however.  We are talking about someone's real
life, as well as our own future ability to freely discuss ideas here,
however unorthodox, controversial, strange, right, wrong, stupid,
of-the-wall, or irrelevant they may be.  I ask for your patience.

Barna L. Bihari

Sammy boy:
>you very well for such a restricted role in life. But don't you know that
>your fellow brown-shirts absolutely despise gays? What makes you think
>they'll make an exception for you?
I gave it 5 rounds before total despair would consume you and you'd start
calling me a nazi as well.  Right on schedule, Samster!  A word of caution
though, your last post fully qualifies as hate mail, as well as libel.  At
my age a little mudslinging can be fun and good for my health, but
unfounded nazi accusations ain't fair game no more.

>would be receptive to your advances. On the other hand, you attempt to
>stooge for Mr. Nemenyi, yet can't seem to provide the documentary evidence
>which would back up his claims and yours. And even when you take a few
>extra megabytes to work on your flaming, it never rises much above
You pathetic moron.  Eva Balogh just corroborated my first post on this
thread (ask one of the eager translators to help you out).  Boy, don't you
feel like a fool's ass now.  As usual, you won't be man enough to admit you
were wrong in attacking me in the first place.  BTW, do you have any idea
what (and how much) a megabyte is? :-)  No, it's not a TV program.:-)

Barna Bihari

PS. You're trying hard to conceal your insecurities, yet you're still
getting too jealous.  Relax.  Noone is taking your Lyle away from you. I
bet he'll even visit you in jail and sing you a Lyle'aby or two.:-)))

PS2. But I have faith in you.  Even your cognitive disabilities can't
forever keep you from realizing that I am no right-winger either.  In
the meantime, you don't seem to need me to make an idiot out of you, you
do a very nice job of it, all by yourself.

Zoli Fekete says:
>>>> Back to the point:  A MAN -- regardless who -- LOST HIS LIVELIHOOD BECAUSE
>>>> OF HIS (PERCEIVED) VIEWS.  Period.
>>> This is not true as stated, period. [...]
>> Look Zoli, I am not in the habit of stating what's not true.  You don't
>> have to believe me now, but implicitly calling me a liar is not kosher
> I have not called you a liar (and do not). I was pointing out why your
>syllogism was untrue. For it to hold, both premises must be true AND the
I can surely appreciate that.  But reading Eva Balogh's post, do you now
believe it?

>(and other hatemongering, incidentally) posts; to say that this very
>visible run-in with the institution's policy should've been treated the
>same as tentatively allowed browsing (in the semi-privacy of the
>employers' own) of the Net is the kind of stretch that is not helping your
>case at all.
I believe that NPA should have been given a warning.  What he did (posting
from Argonne) was foolish, for he could have e-mailed all he wanted from
his interaccess account.  But firing/forcing him out was far too excessive
a punishment, especially that he had an excellent job performance record.

>> as you don't let yourself be bogged down in any substantial arguments.
> Oh, I would like nothing more - please present some, at long last ;-(...
Well, tell us when you're ready to take a position, not *assuming* what
I say is true, but based on facts seeping in from all sides, but
apparently converging to a common point.

>with Nemenyi's line in this sordid post-martyrdom affair; I haven't yet
>heard you to comment on this, did you?
Please see above, what I think the FAIRest course of action would have
been.  I wish, however, to return to what I think is far more significant
of an issue for us now:  should we be intimidated, threatened, blackmailed,
and eventually silenced because of a perceived weakness, independent of
the issue or argument at hand?  I think that's what is at stake.  Until,
however, we can come to a consensus by liberals and conservatives alike to
unequivocally denounce such cowardly actions,we can't go on with our daily
business of honest arguments about any other substantive issue either.

I, for one, will speak out just the same were it for communist, nazi,
anarchist, maoist, fascist, democratic, martian or even stowicist freedom
of expression.

Barna Bihari

In article >,  (JFerengi)
writes:

>If you wish to silence me, not for the content of what I say, but for the
>name
>under my posts, then, you are missing the whole point.
>
>                                                  Regards,
>                                                                  Mark
>Twain

No one is trying to silence you. I'm simply trying to get you to take
public responsibility for your public statements. Apparently rumors of
your demise have, indeed, been greatly exagerrated, Mr. Clemens.
Sam Stowe

"C'mon, honey, think about
it -- a jet engine, a riding lawn
mower...Someone was bound
to put 'em together eventually..."
-- Tim "The Toolman" Taylor

Hi Amos:

Just thought of something in retrospect.  Are disznosajt and disznofejsajt
the same?  The latter is more specific, which gave me the thought that
perhaps disznosajt is made from different parts of the pig?

Also;  does anyone remember eating chicken feet?  I remember fighting over
that on Sundays.  They were always a part of my grandmother's "Husleves" -
(Chicken soup).  In talking with an Oriental Doctor some months ago, he
actually recommended the ingestion of chicken feet to combat lethargy and
increase insulin production.  He said something about it being especially
good for men?

Regards,
Aniko

In article >,
 says...

>At 06:06 PM 7/27/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:
>>  Of course, it isn't. In this country property taxes paid to the town
>>in addition to grants from the state government take care of public
>>eduction. By the way, considering that I am not married and I have no
>>children and 75 percent of my property taxes (of close to $4,000/year)
>>goes to education, I think that in the last twenty years I have paid
>>fully for my own public education. Add to this, my yearly alumni
>>contribution to Yale and Carleton Universities!

Joe Szalai replied:
>You don't feel put out by having had to pay for your own public education,
>do you?  And, by the way, everyone who owns property pays school tax.
>Whether you're married or not, or have children or not, is irrelevant.
>However, you can consider yourself lucky if you don't have children because
>they cost a lot of money, above and beyond the property tax.

Here, I interjected:
Firstly a question: with regard to the point about *government grants*,
doesn't every earner contribute to state education in USA and Canada
via income tax, as well as local taxes, rates, etc, like Britain and
most other places?

Secondly, of course, everyone pays for state education. Ms Balogh seems
to think that only her education matters and that she shouldn't contribute
anyone else's education. Perhaps she should be introduced to the idea that
it is in the interest of the *whole* community to have on-going state
education not only paid for by earners before the advent of Ms Balogh in
North America, but also after!

Another question: aren't annual alumni contributions a complete red-
herring to the argument?

Further on, Ms Balogh tried to promote herself again (golly, what a
terrible inferiority complex she must have) with:
>>And by the way, I am one of the very few people I know on the
>>Internet who actually invested the meagre compensation I received in the
>>Hungarian stock exchange, trying to help the Hungarian economy. I didn't
>>sell my shares to speculators and exchanged them to American dollars.

Joe graciously (sarcastically?) replied:
>See!  You can be nobel when you want.

Yours truly clarified:
Sorry, Joe, but I don't buy this nobleness story at all (and I suspect
you don't either!) What's the matter with you? I just cannot believe
that you're actually feeling sorry for the most monstrous ego on this list!

Were the aforesaid compensation so *meagre*, what is so noble about
investing it on the Hungarian stock exchange? Should the recipient of
the meagre compensation frequently travel to Hungary and have interests
there, does it not smack of a shrewd self-interested gamble, rather
than any nobler-than-most-others-on-the-Internet line that Ms Balogh
is trying to sell to the world. After all, a meagre amount of Hungarian
forints isn't going to buy many dollars and think of all those commission
charges when exchanging foreign currencies into dollars that reduce the
number of dollars even further. I'm afraid that canonization of Ms Balogh
as one-of-the-very-few-noble-patriots-on-the-Internet Saint Eva of the
Hungarian economy, will have to wait for another incarnation (when she
might learn to bullshit less transparently.)

Buying Hungarian exports in North America on a regular basis, arranging
such exports, opening a business, or becoming a partner in a business
in Hungary, etc, etc, might make a more convincing story about helping
the Hungarian economy, warranting canonization, rather than speculating
on the Hungarian stock exchange.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC

At 10:22 a.m. 7/29/96 Peter Szoeltz wrote:

>One of the worst stuff I can imagine (I was asked to try it
>when I was in kid) is disnosajt (also known as kocsonya)
>It is all the stuff that should have been thrown away...
>preserved in Aspic!  Yeeechh!!!

I *love* disznosajt (head cheese) and Kocsonya, (whics is aspic and
resembles head cheese, but is not quite the same) and you would only think
it disqusting if you never wanted for food and never had to make do.
People who have known lack would never be so wasteful as to discard the
head and feet of the poor pig which died that they may live.

best wishes,
Tibor Benke

I must comment on Eva Balogh's statement:
>preoccupied with this particular topic? We know from the horse's mouth that
>he has some Jewish connection, by marriage. I guess, this is the basis of
>Barna Bihari's contention that Mr. Nemenyi couldn't possibly an antisemite.
>But, let's face it, you can be born a Jew and be an antisemite. I have met
>several of them. Just because Mr. Nemenyi was married to a Jewish woman once
>upon the time and has a child who is half Jewish that doesn't mean that Mr.
>Nemenyi cannot be antisemitic. Far from it.
Good guess from Eva Balogh :-) (or would she elaborate on her sources?).
Peter Nemenyi has a Jewish wife, (therefore) Jewish daughter, and
(therefore) Jewish grandchild.  This too was on the tape I received,
coming not from the horse's, but from an Israeli citizen's mouth (Peter's
good friend).  I would find it strange for someone to hate all Jews (i.e.
be anti-Jewish, since we have established "antisemitic" to be an inaccurate
term), yet marry a Jewish woman.

My apologies to Mr. Nemenyi for discussing his personal life here.

Barna Bihari

By the way, didn't Hungary win World Championships in Kayaking, recently?
How come the dismal showing in the Olympics?Not even in the top 30?

The NBC coverage of the Hammer Throw pissed me off. The camera crew just
about knocked aside the gold medal winning Hungarian man, to rush to
interview the silver winning American. Without so much as a 'by your
leave'.
I love to see Americans win but the rudeness bugged me.

At 11:52 AM 7/29/96 -0600, Celia wrote:

>Mr. Nemenyi cites some documents to back up his beliefs. Ms. Balogh
>denounces the validity of those documents and makes the _personal, based
>upon her being an expert in this field_ contention that, "the Canadian
>forces didn't have anyone among them (or perhaps it was just very few) who
>spoke or read Russian fluently, knew anything about the reality of Russia,
>and they were additionally prejudiced against the disorganization of the
>non-Bolshevik forces.

        First of all, I was talking about the Americans, but if you insist
the Canadians were no better.

>Excuse me, but just as a person reading this debate, could you, Ms. Balogh
>please cite some documentary proof of this appalling ignorance of the
>Canadian forces, besides your own expert opinion?

        I don't even know where my B.A. thesis is and I certainly will not
go to Ottawa or to Washington to the respective the national archives to
satisfy your curiosity. I am not basing this on my "expertise in the field,"
but on the hundreds of documents and books I read on the subject. If you are
curious, I am sure you can also go through those documents.


>The reason I ask, is because from what I know of immigration to the upper
>Midwestern U.S.--and the plains provinces of Canada, I find it hard to
>believe the expeditionary forces had no persons in them who knew anything
>about Russia, and spoke Russian.  In North and South Dakota, Minnesota,
>Montana, Iowa, etc.--and likewise the Canadian provinces adjacent to these
>states, more than 100,000 Russian emigrants of German-Russian ancestry,
>Jewish-Russian ancestry, etc. settled here in the 1870's-1890's.  They were
>darned good farmers, small merchants, entrepreneurs in small businesses
>manufacturing lots of farm, home and small business items and in repairing
>them.

        Oh, sure and the army brass was made up of Ukrainian farm boys!!!

>My husband's family interrmarried with some of them who spoke both
>Russian and German, and our insurance agent for many years in Minnesota who
>was a district head for his company, was proud to be a descendant of these
>people.

        You can ask your insurance agent whether his ancestor was involved
in the expeditionary force in Soviet Russia in 1918. I am sure that you will
get a very satisfactory answer on the Russian-language skills of American
and Canadian army brass.

        Eva Balogh

At 11:35 AM 7/29/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely, arguing with George Antony, wrote:

>> > The first year is always different. The
>> > liberals wanted to force, e.g., Antall into a
>> > 'shock therapy' in the first year of his leader-
>> > ship and they accused him to miss a 'historical
>> > chance', because he did not comply. Why?
>>
>> In my view, because he was economically illiterate, as was most of the
>> leadership.
>Does it sound 'unbiased' to you, huhh? Just funny. Kadar Bela was the
>captain of economy between 90 and 94 and he did an excellent job.

        If I recall properly, Bela Kadar was the man behind the "slow
transition" theory. According to some commentators one reason for the MDF's
victory (but not the only reason) was the promise of this slow transition
which would be just the opposite of the shock therapy. The voters believed
that this would be a "painless" transition. Unfortunately, Bela Kadar's
economic ideas couldn't ensure a painless transition. In fact, it is very
possible that it extended the period of economic pain. As we know, Poland
followed Jeffrey Sachs's shock therapy method and it seemed to have worked
in Poland. Those opposing the shock therapy argue that Hungary was much more
"advanced" along the lines of market economy than either Poland or
Czechoslovakia and therefore "shock therapy" made no sense in Hungary. The
"slow transition" was actually so slow that in three years the government
envisaged only thirty percent of the state property privatized.

        As for Mr. Antall's virtues. He had many but economics was not his
strong suit. He was a man of grand political ideas and was apparently bored
by economics. That was unfortunate for several reasons. The ancien regime
died not a political death but an economic death. Democracy if it wanted to
be a popular idea in the minds of the people had to be successful
economically. The problems of the new, democratic government were many, both
political and economic but no political victory can be imagined without
perceived economic growth. This economic growth has been alluding the
Hungarian economy.

        Eva Balogh

At 05:06 PM 7/29/96 -0400, you wrote:
>    Just in case you are interested,
>                                     Amos

Yes, more than muchly and thanks more than muchly also!

BTW; just in case any one is interested, I am looking forward to a surge of
medals for Hungary and for Canada also in Canoe/Kayak starting tomorrow.
(sorry, you Americans).

Keep cheering ya'll!

Btw;  I saw a super poster in Hungary:

It has a bunch of people obviously cheering ... and the graphics were simply
words:

"Atlanta csak 8000KM messze... szurkolj hangossabban!"
In English (sort of since translating is not my forte) = Atlanta is only
8000km in distance.....cheer louder!

Even though it was a Coke add, I thought that it utilized great imagination
with a tad of emotion!

Regards,
Aniko

>

I'd be willing to join a letter writing campaign, but if we come up with
too long a list of complaints we will lose credibility.
Could we ask NBC to do a quick profile of the 14 countries that were in
the original Olympics, 100 years ago? Maybe a total medal count over the
last 100 years.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Tony and Celia Becker wrote:
> >Can you tell me anything about these cities?
> >
> >Debrecen
> >Debrecsen (Nograd)
>
> According to some visitors we just had in this area from Debrecen, it is in
> the northeast of Hungary, and a small city of about 50,000 persons. (small
> by U.S. standards, that is.).  The term "nograd" by a city's name used to
> mean "new city"--rather like New Ulm, Minnesota compared with Ulm, Germany.
>
> The visitors described Debrecen as flat, often dusty (usually in the
> summer), and with no lakes or rivers to speak of that allow for parks with
> water in them.  A nice city, quiet, little crime, but not really beautiful
> like some other Hungarian cities--a good business city, though.

 Er, some things have gotten rather mixed up here I'm afraid. If you're
talking about Debrecen, that's around 100,000 souls I believe (in near
dead heat with my home Szeged for the title of the third largest in the
country, incidentally) - and it's in Hajdu-Bihar county on the southeast.
The city in Nograd county I don't recall hearing about, and I likely
would've known of Hungarian cities larger than say 20,000 (of which there
may only be few dozens at most).

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMf0uv8Q/4s87M5ohAQGuUgIA62f5njRHHms0WTI+3XHWAFIODe/gSfpU
dDQ5BKv/CtSYa2L588XjrU/8JgFzbyfVBPKqrkgFtHQCC5WX3iDteQ==
=s4SK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

At 10:22 AM 7/29/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>One of the worst stuff I can imagine (I was asked to try it
>when I was in kid) is disnosajt (also known as kocsonya)
>It is all the stuff that should have been thrown away...
>preserved in Aspic!  Yeeechh!!!

        Disznosajt is not kocsonya. Kocsonya = allat csontos, boros
reszeibol fozott etel, amelyet hidegen fogyasztanak, amikor a leve mar
attetszo rezgo anyagga dermedt. That was from the Hungarian dictionary.
Basically, it is a soup in which there are a lot of bones and therefore
gelatine. When cold it becomes aspic-like with nice pieces of pork meat in
it. Disznosajt = tisztitott disznogyomorba toltott fejhusbol valo
huskeszitmeny. (Same source). So, Aniko rightly pointed out that disznosajt
is made up of the head of the pig and I remembered correctly that it has
something to do with the stomach. In any case, I don't like disznosajt but I
like kocsonya.

        Eva B.

OK, the pronouncement of all times....as our friend in Boone (Appalachian
State) pointed out, GEOGRAPHY MATTERS. I would sure hate to be an
ex-patriate American in Debrecen trtying to find coverage of the
Americans in anything but basketball and gymnastics. ;-)

Nationalistic, yes. However, is this any surprise...we are hosting. Is
someone on this list going to tell me that EXPO 96 wold not have been
somewhat nationalistic itself? What else is such a spectacle for if not
to highlight the host? Why else do they want to host these things that
are huge drains on local economies, that make the disenfranchised get
screwed some more, etc?

Just m7y two cents worth. Darren

>> >        Fried pig's blood is very good. Believe me. We used to have it once
>> >a year: at pig's killing time in early January.

I am really glad I am a vegetarian!! By the way, if we are what we eat, how
would you define Hungarians??

Anna M.

On Jul 29,  1:36pm, Aniko Dunford wrote:
> Subject: Re: Rare Delicacies (Was disgusting food/A growing list)
>  Hi Amos:
>
> Just thought of something in retrospect.  Are disznosajt and disznofejsajt
> the same?  The latter is more specific, which gave me the thought that
> perhaps disznosajt is made from different parts of the pig?
>
> Also;  does anyone remember eating chicken feet?  I remember fighting over
> that on Sundays.  They were always a part of my grandmother's "Husleves" -
> (Chicken soup).  In talking with an Oriental Doctor some months ago, he
> actually recommended the ingestion of chicken feet to combat lethargy and
> increase insulin production.  He said something about it being especially
> good for men?
>
> Regards,
> Aniko
>-- End of excerpt from Aniko Dunford

    Hi Aniko,

       I honestly don't know whether there is a difference between the
    two: disznosajt and disznofejsajt.  I must admit  that this is the
    first time I hear  about disznofejsajt.  Is it possible  that this
    is a regional difference only?
       As for chicken feet, I have it in my local supermarket. Yes, it
    used to be part of "husleves".And this reminds me of my daughter's
    reaction when I have taken her to Hungary for the first time.  She
    was about 16 at the time and the  horror on her face is undiscrib-
    able. I still  tease her about  it by asking her  whether I should
    send a package over.
       Regards,
                 Amos

    PS - Sam, it turns out  that you have  some decent  ancestry there
              after all :-). Scrambled eggs and brain. Yum!!! And I am
              serious about that!!!
                                    Amos

At 05:14 PM 7/29/96 -0400, you wrote:
>By the way, didn't Hungary win World Championships in Kayaking, recently?
>How come the dismal showing in the Olympics?Not even in the top 30?
>
Yes they did in some events.  Others they placed 2nd and third.  The race
was in Duisburg and in Poznan.

The Kayay and Canoe (Sprint races) are starting today 10 am eastern time.
The whitewater kayak races just finished.  THe finals will be this weekend.
If anyone wants the shedule, let me know.  Traditionally, Hungary has been
extremely strong in these two events.  I hope that they will continue this
tradition - and haul in all the hardware they can!!!

>The NBC coverage of the Hammer Throw pissed me off. The camera crew just
>about knocked aside the gold medal winning Hungarian man, to rush to
>interview the silver winning American. Without so much as a 'by your
>leave'.
>I love to see Americans win but the rudeness bugged me.

At least this year, the reporters are not asking really stupid questions.
For example:  right after having lost a race asking "how do you feel"? -
This used to make me really really mad!!!

Regards,
Aniko
>
>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, Norma Rudinsky wrote:
> What do you mean by "Slavicized Bulgarian"?  To me the phrase seems to
> mean that Bulgarian was something other than Slavic before it was
> Slavicized.
 Well, it was - Turkic, if I'm not mistaken...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMf4Nj8Q/4s87M5ohAQFOBwIA1CF6ieoz0Yl3ZX0DCCBkMJSaThSOC3W8
UtIoDoIF4VrmG5sfX+PDO55bO7mCI9ZecBqaHfW0OZZ1AikoKanqVw==
=crxv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Jul 30, 12:35am, George Szaszvari wrote:
> Subject: Re: New Thread / Same Old Topic
> In article >,
>  says...
>
> Another question: aren't annual alumni contributions a complete red-
> herring to the argument?

     Why do you have this urge to make a fool of yourself - publically?
                                                                  Amos

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Barna L. Bihari wrote:
> WE MUST PREVENT SUCH REPORTING INCIDENTS FROM EVER HAPPENING AGAIN.

 Why, that's simple enough - just make some draconic punishments
for reporting. Given the seriousness, perhaps we should start some
truly effective deterrant, like cutting ones tongue out.
 For this to work (ie. to catch anyone reporting), you'd have to set up a
system for having serial numbers to typewriters, copiers, computers and
any other means of communication and then track those. Precedents of such
measures have been worked out before, so all you need is to follow the
good examples of Rakosi, Ceau, Hoover/McCarthy and the likes.

 One must wonder if you thought thru what you are saying about
preventing "Secret Police" kind of activity this way, though ;-<...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMf4Pz8Q/4s87M5ohAQEbUQIAmJOxcdgsr3zkD38Oz29WDKq1869w1eF6
fFqPAx1ek/a9ztIUfBtwLcuuDu8fGY82pIcBBr28dOnCDLwngmxKxQ==
=/ju6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

At 11:21 PM 7/29/96 -0700, Barna Bihari wrote:
>Zoli Fekete says:
>>>>> Back to the point:  A MAN -- regardless who -- LOST HIS LIVELIHOOD BECAUS
E
>>>>> OF HIS (PERCEIVED) VIEWS.  Period.
>>>> This is not true as stated, period. [...]
>>> Look Zoli, I am not in the habit of stating what's not true.  You don't
>>> have to believe me now, but implicitly calling me a liar is not kosher
>> I have not called you a liar (and do not). I was pointing out why your
>>syllogism was untrue. For it to hold, both premises must be true AND the
>I can surely appreciate that.  But reading Eva Balogh's post, do you now
>believe it?

        Now, wait a moment! My "mole's" information isn't worth a damn. He
simply says that "rumor has it" that such and such thing happened to
Nemenyi. But that rumor may have originated with Mr. Nemenyi himself. This
is no confirmation of anything.

        Here is a possible scenario. Eva Balogh is fired because she used
the company's computer four hours out of eight for personal use, and the
nasty management decided that Eva Balogh's productivity was on the low side.
Eva Balogh is packing her belongings and clearing out her desk when a fellow
worker comes by and says, "Eva, what's the matter? Are you leaving us?"
"Yes," Eva Balogh says, "I was forced to resign because allegedly I made
antisemitic remarks on a Hungarian-language list on the Internet." "Oh, my
God," says the fellow worker, "that's terrible. How did they know what you
wrote on a Hungarian-language list? They don't know Hungarian." "No, they
dont," says Eva Balogh, "but there are some horrible people on the list and
although they didn't give me names, they hinted that I was denounced by
somebody/somebodies from the list." "And by the way," asks the fellow
worker, "are you an antisemite? Did you write antisemitic pieces?" "Oh, no,"
says Eva Balogh, "I am not an antisemite. The whole thing is absolutely
baseless." Then, fellow worker goes his/her friend and tells the story, and
that fellow worker goes to her/his friend and and eventually the whole
company is buzzing with the sad story of Eva Balogh.

        Therefore, please don't keep saying that my "mole's" rumor is a
confirmation of the true story of Mr. Nemenyi. I didn't take it as such and
I don't think that my four friends I had sent the letter without any comment
took it seriously either.

        Eva Balogh

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Barna L. Bihari wrote:
> >syllogism was untrue. For it to hold, both premises must be true AND the
> I can surely appreciate that.  But reading Eva Balogh's post, do you now
> believe it?
 Believe what? Eva's account only told what she did and heard, not what
actually happened to NPA, in any case.

> I believe that NPA should have been given a warning.
 According to the ANL HR, he would have been given a warning before any
pressure coud've been applied. Are you saying we should take, without
any supporting evidence whatsoever, NPA's word to the contrary?
 He himself said that 'they made him sign some paper' (which in the
context must have meant an employer contract of some kind) - this in my
book counts as one warning of the strongest sorts right there.

>+> This is really about hurling yet more denunciations at Eva, Gabor or
>+>whomever happen to disagree (aka be "detractors", in pro-NPA parlance)
 +{Note the important first two-thirds of my sentence, that got cut out of
 + your quoting, restored above}
> >with Nemenyi's line in this sordid post-martyrdom affair; I haven't yet
> >heard you to comment on this, did you?
> Please see above, what I think the FAIRest course of action would have
> been.  I wish, however, to return to what I think is far more significant
> of an issue for us now:  should we be intimidated, threatened, blackmailed,
> and eventually silenced because of a perceived weakness, independent of
> the issue or argument at hand?  I think that's what is at stake.

 Well, in a sense I agree. This campaign is apparently not merely to
place the blame for NPA's own violation of his signed contract on
whomever may have complained about his misuse. It also quite clearly aims
at intimidating and threatening everyone considered to fall into the
broadly drawn 'Nemenyi's enemies' list. It's remarkable that you manage
to keep overlooking this stake...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMf4X7cQ/4s87M5ohAQFOrAH+J5zWOJstkfnA2HcwokXyLPfsMoktLqlk
6mFwNiRvaktB1w492HiLgevhMqPxpy/OlQn+qI7NNellPtJ/hF3q3w==
=Na5M
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
> I don't think that my four friends I had sent the letter without any comment
> took it seriously either.

 You know Eva, these are the kind of comments that may put you in the
hot seat in the upcoming hearings when you're going to be forced to name
names - beter keep quiet now than having to resort to the 5th later#

#footnote: this here is sarcasm; but then if you needed a footnote to this
 it'd be likely useless anyways ;-(
- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMf4afsQ/4s87M5ohAQHFLQIAt/+cZgEBcXfiU3I2J1JKPEla/tKufMFn
AFUmDD0hoSWJ3kGpH7jP+Z+2dZdexAjEo2xGTJbJBM0UzbuJ+TTB+w==
=TJea
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

> All of which begs the question -- why are you an apologist for an
> anti-semite? Cut out the defensive crap and answer the question.
> Sam Stowe

Come on, Sam. Who is an anti-semite I am an apologist for,
in the first place? Could you elaborate this as you trying
to tie me up in your favorite (rather simple-minded) box?

                                                 Sz. Zoli
> ---------------------------------------------------------
"Ulyanoff used to live, Ulyanoff is living
 Ulyanoff is going to live forever."
                                       (Russian folk-song)

Norma Rudinsky writes:

> What do you mean by "Slavicized Bulgarian"?  To me the phrase seems to
> mean that Bulgarian was something other than Slavic before it was
> Slavicized.

Well, to my meager knowledge, the Bulgarians were a Turkish related folk,
part of whom became Slavicized after their migration to the current
Bulgarian area. (The rest slowly disappeared after the Mongol visits to the
Volga region.) The Hungarians had early contact with the still Turkish
Bulgarians before arriving in present Hungary (probably both the migrating
and the stationary group). It appears that the Hungarian name for the
non yet Slavicized Bulgars was Nandor (thus Nandorfehervar for what later
became Belgrad). By the time the Hungarians arrived in current Hungary, the
Bulgarians in the Balkans were heavily mixed or even assimilated by the
local Slavic population (there were also internal leadership fights among
the Bulgarian upper classes where the conventional pagan but not Slavicized
folks were somewhat exterminated, just think of the Saint Stephen times
except with additional language differences). The now mainly Slav (icized)
Bulgarians were the ones who had control of the eastern half of Hungary at
the time of the "Honfoglalas", as an example Csongrad is a known extant
Bulgarian stronghold at the time of the conquest. (At that time Serbia was
centered further south than it is today). Thus the contact was mainly with
Bulgaria both in the contra and pro sense in the various early wars of the
Hungarians. While there is known contact between the early Hungarians and
Slavs in what is now the Ukraine before the Hungarians arrived in Hungary,
however there appear to be more Slavic words in Hungarian taken from
Bulgarian than from the Russian Slavic. Naturally the Hungarians also found
other Slav speakers in the area and at least the indications are that they
called them Tot ( which has some additional interesting threads for another
time). Anyway that is what I mean by Slavicized Bulgarians.

> Otherwise yes, it seems quite possible (to oversimplify) that Magyars
> moving north from Serbian or Bulgarian linguistic areas and having
They generally did not move north from Serbian or Bulgarian linguistic
areas. The movement was mostly westbound at that time.

>learned
> there that the common Slavic word "grad" means a fortified castle on a
> hill etc, would recognize that word in the Slovak area "hrad" and thus
> understand Vysehrad and take it into Magyar as Visegrad.

I do not know what was the status of Visegrad at that time, but is is
accepted that Csongrad was an existing Bulgarian fort as was Belgrad,
although that name was translated and not used in the early Hungarian, as
mentioned above.

However, it is also true that the Hungarians had some early contact with
the Moravians and Czechs also. :-)

To keep with the food line also, the early Hungarian pasta dish was
tarhonya and not galuska or nokedli, probably because tarhonya travels
better.
>My original
> point was that it seemed to me unlikely that Serbian Belgrad would be
> carried north to explain and translate the local name Vysehrad in the
> Slovak area.  (As it seems unlikely that the Polish galuska would be
> carried south to the Low Tatra sheep pastures to explain the local term
> halusky.)
BTW don't the Ruthens also use the word galuska?
Regards,Jeliko

At 03:13 AM 7/30/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:

>The head cheese thing, though,
>reminds me of watching my grandfather and dad scramble eggs and hog brains
>together in a skillet. Absolutely revolting!

You've obviously not had scrambled chicken blood for lunch.  Whenever one of
our chickens was to be our meal, its neck would be slit and all the blood
would be collected.  My mother would fry up some onions and then add the
chicken blood.  The blood cooks up like eggs, only darker.  Yummy food.

Joe Szalai

I also have a DOE email address, which I obviously do not use for my
personal correspondance. At the time of its issuance I signed a document
that it is for official use only! The national labs may have a different
policy, (because they have their own domain and are not tied individually
to the DOE net). However, as an example, several folks were dismissed from
PNNL for using official email connection to porno nets. Other than that I
have not heard of anyone being dismissed for using email for other than
official correspondance. There are always many rules which have
discretionary enforcement and not only within DOE. However, I would like to
add that so far, nobody has sent me an email message on the official DOE
net that was not DOE business related.

Regards,Jeliko

At 01:36 PM 7/29/96 -0400, Aniko Dunford wrote:

>Also;  does anyone remember eating chicken feet?  I remember fighting over
>that on Sundays.  They were always a part of my grandmother's "Husleves" -
>(Chicken soup).  In talking with an Oriental Doctor some months ago, he
>actually recommended the ingestion of chicken feet to combat lethargy and
>increase insulin production.  He said something about it being especially
>good for men?

I just came back with a kilo of it from the market.  I'm sending all of it
to Peter A. Soltesz.  Maybe it will help him.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Joe Szalai

At 10:02 PM 7/28/96 -0400, Auphanim >
wrote:
>Can you tell me anything about these cities?
>Debrecen
>Debrecsen (Nograd)
>What does the name mean?

Debrecen's name  seems to be related to a Turkic (Kipchak) word meaning "let it
move, let it live",  and it probably is a kind of foreboding name.

Debrecse'ny is probably a person-name of Slavic origin (cp. Bulgarian
Dobrchin, Serbo-Croatian  dobrchin, etc.)


Paolo Agostini >

On  Mon, 29 Jul 1996 04:46:44 -0400 JFerengi >
wrote:

> Interestingly enough, I heard that blood sausage= veres hurka =
> boudin noir = sasigia fegeta the last spelling is a total guess on
> my part....anyway, its Italian blood sausage. What I find
> interesting is, that the Hungarian word for black is fekete. Any
> connection?

In the past  the poorest people in Northern Italy made some kind of
thick, disgusting food by mixing blood with floor. First they cooked
it until it became thick, then they fried it. In Southern Italy they
made some kind of sausage somewhat similar to the Hungarian "ve'res
hurka" (although I assume it was occasionally made in Northern Italy too).

BTW, this unwholesome practice has now been forbidden by the laws of
the European Communities.

The standard Italian name for both  is "sanguinaccio", from
the word "sangue" meaning blood and the pejorative suffix "-accio".
The use of a pejorative suffix says a great deal about the basic
attitude toward this kind of "food"...

Let me tell you that I never heard the name ("sasigia fegeta") you
quoted. However, please note that several minority languages (e.g.
French, German, Friulan, Albanese, Slovenian, etc.) as well as
HUNDREDS of different dialects are spoken in Italy. Almost every
little town and/or parish (sic!) has a dialect of its own. And every
linguistic community in Italy has its own traditions, traditions
which are tied to the local, vernacular terminology. Sometimes it is
possible to translate these names into  standard Italian, some other
times this is impossible.

The first word, i.e. "sasigia" seems to be related to Italian
"salsiccia" (approx. pron.: sahlseechah), i.e. sausage.

As concerning the second word, i.e. "fegeta", the only possibility
is to trace it back to the Italian or Latin word for "fig" . I could
assume that blood and figs are mixed to make the taste even
sweeter (:-[ , but I doubt this is the right solution. The second
possibility is to relate this name to "liver". One of the
most popular specialities of the he ancient Roman cuisine was liver
in fig sauce. In Latin it sounded "jecur (=liver) ficatum (=with
figs)" and it was so widespread that the modern Italian word for
liver is "fegato" (instead of "iecure" as it would be expected to be).

I assume that "sasigia fegeta" could eventually mean "liver sausage",
thus I think it could be the Italian name for something similar to
Hungarian "ma'jas hurka", which has very little or nothing to do
with the "ve'res hurka". But I'm sure that the Italian pork-butcher
who suggested you this strange-sounding name will be just happy to
tell you where he is from, so we will know the dialect from which the
above name originates, and possibly supply you with the correct spelling :-)

Therefore there is no connection between the "Italian" and the
Hungarian words.

As far as the Hungarian word "fekete" (=black) is concerned, it is
said to  belongto the so-called "Ugric" period, and it is usually put
into relationship with Ostyak "pegta" and Vogulic "pit, piti"
(=black).

Kindest regards

Paolo Agostini >

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, Stowewrite wrote:
> > As a matter of act, online identity is not such a trivial matter as most
> >assume.
> You overstate your case, but not by much. Someone
> with your skills and intelligence could get away for a while with
> forgeries.

 But I am not talking about forgeries. My illustrative example with the
difficulty of spotting even an impersonation is a bit overstated (I most
certainly wouldn't want to appear in Joe's persona ;-() to make the point
- - but the case about the issue is not. The question is the inherent
difficulty in connecting online personality with real-life one. While, at
this point, I have reason to trust that you are indeed the same Sam Stowe
I may find off-line - in principle the 'stowewrite' string does not say
more, nor less, than 'jferengi' or 'mpflerr' or 'Szabo_III_Janos' or
'Jeliko'. That JFerengi made a choice of writing under a pen name (and one
that reveals itself to be so, incidentally - it could've been "Valentine
M. Smith" or even less conspicious and then you may not have found it out
at all) should not be a factor in judging her/his/its posts.

>[...]
> If we take your position to its logical conclusion,
 {actually you're taking this to illogicality ;-(...}

> then we should pay no attention to what anyone posts on the net.
 That is certainly one safe alternative ;-), albeit it doesn't follow.

> Since one cannot be sure of any poster's identity,
 That's not quite true in this absolute form, but then it's not quite
relevant this way either!

>then one can never be sure of the veracity of anything posted.
 Well, if you assume veracity based on what you think of the poster's
identity, then you're big trouble already. For me anything to be accepted
as objectively true it should be independently verifyable, and preferably
based on documented facts - if it is, then anyone can check it no matter
who said what.

> I take concept of the net as a public forum a little more seriously
> than you do.                                              ^^^^^^^^^
 You mispelt "naively" above ;-(. I am all for the public forum. I am
also for the concept of personal responsibility (have you verifyably signed
your digital writing yet, incidentally ;-)?), too. I just can't take
seriously the idea that choosing one's username would have much to do
with either!

>[twisted analogy of pseudo/anonimity with KKK]
 While I hate few things more than the USA-an tendency of dragging in the
founding fathers on all occasions ;-(, I'm afraid that's just the thing I
ought to commit here: are you saying those nameless discussions shaping
the constitution were so bad as well?

>[...] Problem is that once they get accustomed to
> doing it virtually and getting away with it, the really scary ones will
> think the same rules obtain in real life.
 Well, that's their problem; they would think just the same without the
Net in any case, as history has shown hasn't it?

 The fact is, as a practical matter 'stowewrite' does not assume any more
responsibility than 'jferengi' does - so there, deal with it...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMf44VMQ/4s87M5ohAQGixgH+J8Cb1nquZvSR7wHeaOoSThCdoFSK55gH
VuoCEmDeeejj7/1Ea0l7PG3a7eT6rqpP42wINkCLGBLAavbLVzu6Tw==
=wlyI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:

>Believe what? Eva's account only told what she did and heard, not what
>actually happened to NPA, in any case.

And the same things appeared on Forum by miracles ? :-)

>>I believe that NPA should have been given a warning.

>According to the ANL HR, he would have been given a warning before any
>pressure coud've been applied. Are you saying we should take, without
>any supporting evidence whatsoever, NPA's word to the contrary?

Don't take my words for it. Take a look of ANL.'s written warnings
in the case. You did not see any? There was none.

>He himself said that 'they made him sign some paper' (which in the
>context must have meant an employer contract of some kind) - this in my
>book counts as one warning of the strongest sorts right there.

B.S. There was another policy with later date, opposing to the first
one. Plus the whole company was then violating the original agreement.
It worth nothing, and still worth nothing.

>Well, in a sense I agree. This campaign is apparently not merely to
>place the blame for NPA's own violation of his signed contract on
>whomever may have complained about his misuse.

Then what is it for?

>It also quite clearly aims at intimidating and threatening everyone
>considered to fall into the broadly drawn 'Nemenyi's enemies' list.
>It's remarkable that you manage to keep overlooking this stake...

Please state to whom I threatened other than my denouncers with a
valid legal proceedings? It's remarkable that you manage to keep
overlooking this stake...

NPA.

Eva Balogh is feeding the NPA. saga again:

>Now, wait a moment! My "mole's" information isn't worth a damn. He
>simply says that "rumor has it" that such and such thing happened to
>Nemenyi. But that rumor may have originated with Mr. Nemenyi himself.
>This is no confirmation of anything.

I wonder if the mole's information worth the a damn, then why was it
given to Karesz to post it to Forum? And again Eva is coming out of
another assumption :

>Here is a possible scenario. Eva Balogh is fired because she used
>the company's computer four hours out of eight for personal use, and the
>nasty management decided that Eva Balogh's productivity was on the low side.
>Eva Balogh is packing her belongings and clearing out her desk when a fellow
>worker comes by and says, "Eva, what's the matter? Are you leaving us?"

She is a total IDIOT! I was not given the chance of being able to talk to
any of my co-workers. I was called into an interrogation at the end of the
day, and I was escorted out, without being able to talk to anyone. Few days
later I was contacted by some of my colleagues, who were stating, there goes
a rumor around, that I am being fired, because I am a Nazi. How do you like
it? Eva's assumptions worth shit, just like her credibility!

>Therefore, please don't keep saying that my "mole's" rumor is a
>confirmation of the true story of Mr. Nemenyi. I didn't take it as such
>and I don't think that my four friends I had sent the letter without any
>comment took it seriously either.

Don't back off Eva! You are a miserable liar. You fabricated stories about
my possible lay off, then after getting a false rumor from Istvan N. you
not only took it seriously, but conspired with Gabor Fencsik to post it
under a false name of Karesz. Don't dance back. It is too late! :-)

NPA.

Zoli fekete wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>>I don't think that my four friends I had sent the letter without any
>>comment took it seriously either.

>You know Eva, these are the kind of comments that may put you in the
>hot seat in the upcoming hearings when you're going to be forced to
>name names - beter keep quiet now than having to resort to the 5th
>later#

>#footnote: this here is sarcasm; but then if you needed a footnote to this
>it'd be likely useless anyways ;-(

Let's face folks. Eva talks too much. It made me smile when she talked
about the four, but I almost started to laugh when Zoltan Fekete talked
about the fifth. It was posted with a smiley, but believe me, even without
it, I understood the false  humor in it. What would you call when a person
secretly gathering in formations about someone and sending it around? :-)

NPA.

Jeliko wrote:

>I also have a DOE email address, which I obviously do not use for my
>personal correspondance. At the time of its issuance I signed a document
>that it is for official use only! The national labs may have a different
>policy, (because they have their own domain and are not tied individually
>to the DOE net). However, as an example, several folks were dismissed from
>PNNL for using official email connection to porno nets. Other than that I
>have not heard of anyone being dismissed for using email for other than
>official correspondance. There are always many rules which have
>discretionary enforcement and not only within DOE. However, I would like to
>add that so far, nobody has sent me an email message on the official DOE
>net that was not DOE business related.

Were they also branded as a Nazi, and did they go through an investigation
dealing with political articles?

NPA.

At 10:08 AM 7/30/96 PDT, Jelikowrote:
>Norma Rudinsky writes:
>
>> What do you mean by "Slavicized Bulgarian"?  To me the phrase seems to
>> mean that Bulgarian was something other than Slavic before it was
>> Slavicized.
>
>Well, to my meager knowledge, the Bulgarians were a Turkish related folk,
>part of whom became Slavicized after their migration to the current
>Bulgarian area.

        Norma, don't let yourself to be fooled. Jeliko knows a lot about
early Hungarian history which would include contacts with the Bulgarians.
And, by the way, I agree with Jeliko that the Bulgars were originally not
Slavic but became assimilated by the Slavic elements. Thus, they lost their
language, unlike the Hungarians.

>It appears that the Hungarian name for the
>non yet Slavicized Bulgars was Nandor (thus Nandorfehervar for what later
>became Belgrad).

        This is, on the other hand, totally new to me. I always thought that
Nandor is the Hungarian version of Ferdinand (Nandi) a la "Sandor."


        Eva Balogh

At 01:36 PM 7/29/96 -0400, Aniko wrote:

>Also;  does anyone remember eating chicken feet?  I remember fighting over
>that on Sundays.  They were always a part of my grandmother's "Husleves" -
>(Chicken soup).

        Oh, yes, I remember!! My father's favorite piece in the soup.
Neither my mother nor I would touch the stuff! At least I am consistent: I
wouldn't eat there and I wouldn't eat it here. However, I have the feeling
that sooner or later the feet of the chicken in Hungary will go exactly
where they go in this country: dog food. More and more people buy already
killed, cleaned chickens in appropriate packages, just like here. And those
chickens don't have their feet on anymore.

        When I was growing up one had to buy live chickens at the market,
bring them home, kill them, pour hot water over them and take off the
feathers, and so on and so forth. For a child I think this was an
educational experience. We knew exactly where the meat came from. American
kids gobble up all the hamburger and chicken nuggets, and what not, never
wondering about where this all comes from. And when you remind them that a
chicken had to be killed, they say: oh, no, I don't want to talk about it!

>He said something about it being especially
>good for men?

        In what way? Helping semen production?

        Eva Balogh

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
> >Also;  does anyone remember eating chicken feet?  I remember fighting over
>         Oh, yes, I remember!! My father's favorite piece in the soup.
> Neither my mother nor I would touch the stuff! At least I am consistent: I
> wouldn't eat there and I wouldn't eat it here. However, I have the feeling
> that sooner or later the feet of the chicken in Hungary will go exactly
> where they go in this country: dog food. More and more people buy already
> killed, cleaned chickens in appropriate packages, just like here. And those
> chickens don't have their feet on anymore.

 Boy, are you misjudging the direction of progress ;-). "Appropriate
package" to my mother means the three-legged variety (ie. the variant
having an extra one packed in). In our family it was sort of neat - both
my parents liking the lower leg (I can't fathom what's good about bones
and skin, but they do), while me taking all the drumsticks :-). IMHO all
the rest of the chicken (except the liver and heart to be cooked in the
soup, of course - 'zu1za' I can live without) is just superfluous
attachment to the drumsticks - so often we've got enhanced packages with
one chicken's body, three legs and four drumsticks!

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMf5VpsQ/4s87M5ohAQHrkAIAlqN5v4vODFFqZBEIoMCUGCSZiifZK9LL
H+GHbw5WBHUdudZwpJlXxSDs305wEeMhnKrpO2/+B3ZfaKl4hYXiBQ==
=GXWh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Eva Balogh writes:

> >It appears that the Hungarian name for the
> >non yet Slavicized Bulgars was Nandor (thus Nandorfehervar for what
later
> >became Belgrad).

>         This is, on the other hand, totally new to me. I always thought
that
> Nandor is the Hungarian version of Ferdinand (Nandi) a la "Sandor."


No, it has nothing to do with Ferdinand either the person or the bovine
version. The early Arabic (Persian) sources also cite "nndr" in the
neigborhood of the Hungarians (before their conquest of the carpathian
basis). One problem about the names of tribal associations and tribes is
that at times a whole tribal association became known by the name of the
neighboring to the namegiver tribe. Thus we probably will never know if the
Hungarians called all of the south Bulgarians Nandor or only one tribe. The
name occurs besides Nandorfehervar in several other communities in
Transylvania. The current Romanianized version of these Transylvanian
communities is one indication that the locality name was taken via
Hungarian into Romanian, because the Romanians had used a different name
for the Bulgarians.

Regards,Jeliko

Eva Balogh writes:

 killed, cleaned chickens in appropriate packages, just like here. And
those
> chickens don't have their feet on anymore.

And a sad place is a chicken farm now, with feetless and boneless chickens
on the wiremesh floors.

Regards,Jeliko

Hugh Agnew writes:

> hidden agenda to annex part of the Hungarian patrimony (this time
culinary,
> next time who knows?).

> Now it seems Eva Balogh and Norma Rudinsky have experienced a similar
> misunderstanding.  Pity!

> Such was definitely NOT my intention.  On the other hand, when several
> generations of Czechs (or Slovaks, or Austrians, or so-ons: including
> even Americans of Scotch-Irish descent?) have made and re-made and
> passed on dishes, adapting to local climes, ingredients, and tastes,
> _are_ they still "really" Hungarian dishes?

> Would a Hungarian purist cook recognize the "debrecinsky gulas" I got
> in the cheap pub in Cesky Krumlov as "Hungarian"?

Oh well, I particularly miss the good old Hungarian staple Pragai sonka.
Is it really made in Praha also?

Regards,Jeliko.

Peter Nemenyi writes (in relation to my note regarding PNNL personnel being
discharged for porno net connection).


> Were they also branded as a Nazi, and did they go through an
investigation
> dealing with political articles?

I do not know the details only the end result. At least those I know at
PNNL or others at Hanford did not state that other than the indicated cause
was brought up by anyone. I do presume that there was an investigation of
some sort leading to the discharge.

Regards,Jeliko

On Jul 30,  2:23pm, _JELIKO wrote:
> Subject: Re: Rare Delicacies (Was disgusting food/A growing list)
> Eva Balogh writes:
>
>  killed, cleaned chickens in appropriate packages, just like here. And
> those
> > chickens don't have their feet on anymore.
>
> And a sad place is a chicken farm now, with feetless and boneless chickens
> on the wiremesh floors.
>
> Regards,Jeliko
>-- End of excerpt from _JELIKO

In total agreement with Jeliko!!!

respectfully,

Bob Hosh

In article >,
 says...
>Also;  does anyone remember eating chicken feet?  I remember fighting over
>that on Sundays.  They were always a part of my grandmother's "Husleves" -
>(Chicken soup).  In talking with an Oriental Doctor some months ago, he
>actually recommended the ingestion of chicken feet to combat lethargy and
>increase insulin production.  He said something about it being especially
>good for men?

Chicken feet is also a Chinese delicacy. I've eaten it in London's
Chinatown (as a several times guest of a Malaysian Chinese family)
usually as one of a long series of snacks (as a kind of brunch.)
It is surprisingly good. Can't say that I've ever had it as part of
an Hungarian course, though.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC

At 02:23 PM 7/30/96 PDT, Jeliko wrote:
>Eva Balogh writes:
>
> killed, cleaned chickens in appropriate packages, just like here. And
>those
>> chickens don't have their feet on anymore.
>
>And a sad place is a chicken farm now, with feetless and boneless chickens
>on the wiremesh floors.

        I saw one of those places and it was terrible. The owner of the
chicken farm who was showing around occasionally pulled one unfortunate
chicken out of its place, dead. Out they went into the garbage. Considering
that I am a lover of animals in general, and dogs in particular I felt sick,
watching that whole thing.

        Eva B.

Dear fellow-listmembers,

Jeliko fondly remembers Pragai sonka :-))!  I wonder if it was imported
(as the Pick and Herz salami in Prague is, but not the generic "uhersky
salam" which is often made in the Czech lands or Slovakia, and comes
pretty close) or made in Hungary?

While we're talking about food and mutual influences:

On lecso:  do any of you have experience with a version made with freshly-
picked mushrooms instead of any other sausage or meat?  My closest Czech
friends frequently do this when we've been out after mushrooms (the
favorite is a species of boletus, but it uses whatever we found that day).
Made from all fresh ingredients, it is delicious!

On headcheese:  I guess I must have inherited genes for food that other
people find disgusting, but I also like "tlacenka" the Czech version of
headcheese, or its more rustic country cousin "sulc"--not health-food,
exactly, but spread on fresh bread, wonderful.  Perhaps it's all those
generations of haggis-eaters in my background!:-) (Of course haggis is
much improved by what we used to refer to as the "gravy"--scotch whiskey,
preferably single-malt, which is liberally (whoops! there's "that word";-)
doused over the pudding, and complements the bite of the "neeps" or
mashed turnips well).

On the term spa1jz:  I hate to repeat my refrain, but it is common among
at least our Czech friends to refer to the larder by this term (in Czech
the spelling differs, of course, and it's not a "literary" word)... so now
all my kids call it that too.

I'm hungry!  I think I'll go home and try to find a sausage:-).

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

So I was walking along a dirt road in Northern Belgium and I saw some
people burning the hair off a recently killed pig.
Someone cut off the pig's ear and threw it toward me, age 5 at the time. I
did not know what to do, but my companion quickly snatched it up and
started to contently munch on the crispy snack.

Talk about disgusting? I heard that some people, in the USA, would dangle
a piece of horsemeat in a well till it turned green. They swear that the
meat was tender and sweet after this procedure.

It was considered a delicacy to hang pheasant till it would start to
decay.
This was an Belgian epicurean delight.

This little article is in today's Record (Kitchener).
-----
TELEGDI TO HELP BUILD HOUSES

Waterloo MP Andrew Telegdi will be in Hungary from Aug. 11 to 16 to help
build houses with Habitat For Humanity.

Telegdi, who was born in Budapest, will join former U.S. president Jimmy
Carter, Ed Schreyer, a former governor general of Canada, and 600 volunteers
from across North America and Europe to help build 10 houses that week.

The project in Vac, Hungary, is the 13th annual Jimmy Carter Work Project.
In 1993, the first work projects held outside the United States were in
Waterloo and Winnipeg.
-----

Joe Szalai

You are boring beyond even my patience, Stowe. Go practice your little
hate speeches on someone else.
If you have something of merit to say, say it without resorting to
invectives.People would be more likely to listen if you learned to
moderate your shrill tones.

As it is now, you have no credibility. You're doing a great job creating
sympathy for Nemenyi.

Calm down! Get a life! Show even one proof if you have any! Just one would
make me happy.

Let the truth speak for itself.

At 05:08 PM 7/30/96 GMT, you wrote:

>Chicken feet is also a Chinese delicacy. I've eaten it in London's
>Chinatown (as a several times guest of a Malaysian Chinese family)
>usually as one of a long series of snacks (as a kind of brunch.)
>It is surprisingly good. Can't say that I've ever had it as part of
>an Hungarian course, though.

You wouldn't be referring to "Dim Sum" by chance?  If so, it is one of my
favourite ways of eating.  Come to think of it, duck feet in Hong Kong were
widely offered during Dim Sum also.

Regards,
Aniko
>
>--
>George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
>Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC
>
>

At 06:53 PM 7/29/96 -0700, Bihari Barna wrote:

> I would find it strange for someone to hate all Jews (i.e.
>be anti-Jewish, since we have established "antisemitic" to be an inaccurate
>term)

Are you the king? Just asking, since you used the word we. Or is it you and
Nemenyi, that's why?

Gabor D. Farkas

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, Hugh Agnew wrote:
> On lecso:  do any of you have experience with a version made with freshly-
> picked mushrooms instead of any other sausage or meat?
 I never heard of such thing - there is however 'gombapaprika1s' (or is
it 'po2rko2lt' again ;-)), ie. mushroom paprikas...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMf6QLcQ/4s87M5ohAQF8ggIAsBka0bRgiV95ayPOoNhZS0u5LKpSlnT+
phvh/hEMZAHRJaR5shCl76zbEXWPkFVFB1GRl0w21APWF4D0JkYxxQ==
=yk+u
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

_JELIKO > wrote:

>> However, if Hunedoara's linguistic roots are
>> indeed "Slovak," that's news to me. Are there any other Slovak-derived
>> names in that region, and, if that is actually the case, what is  the
>> interpretation associated with these occurrences ?

>To my knowledge, there are numerous Slavic origin placenames in
>Transylvania.

My reply to Eva has already addressed this misunderstanding (see
below). Anyhow,  I have the feeling you guys are overemphasizing the
Slavic toponimy of Transylvania as being the ultimate proof for the
late arrival of Romanians (i.e. after the Magyars) and against the
Daco-Roman continuity. Given that the Romanian language had been
strongly Slavicized prior to the Magyar arrival (starting with the 6th
century), a predominantly 10th century Slavic toponimy is not proof
agains the Vlach presence in the 9th century  Transilvanian area.

"Eva S. Balogh" > wrote:

>Yes. To the best of my knowledge Hungarian vocabulary in Romanian is
>quite extensive: 12-15 percent, something like that.

Romanian has borrowed many Hungarian words, majority of them related
to urban life, army organization, law and trade. However, the  figures
quoted above are way too high. This  is not to say that the linguistic
loan was not beneficial for the Romanian language.

>>However, if Hunedoara's linguistic roots are
>>indeed "Slovak," that's news to me. Are there any other Slovak-derived
>>names in that region, and, if that is actually the case, what is  the
>>interpretation associated with these occurrences ? I can think of one
>>but let me keep it in my sleeve for a moment or two :-)

>        I'm surprised that you are surprised about that. Most of the
>geographic names in that region are of Slavic origin, including, of course,
>the place names in Transylvania.

A careful reading should normally reveal that the object of my
puzzling was not the Slavic toponimy of Banat and Transylvania, but
Hunedoara's alleged Slovak derivation, especially since its age was
tacitly suggested to precede the Hungarians' arrival  in the
Carpathian basin. For that period, it was also argued, the distinction
between West and South Slavic languages was not yet a clear cut, a
viewpoint to which Eva apparently subscribed. The rebuttal is not,
however, anchored in linguistic data.

Conventional wisdom among Slavists holds that Common Slavic ended
around 500 AD, although there are linguists, such as Georghiev and
Patrut, arguing for the existence of a Late  Common Slavic time period
between 400 and 800 AD (see Birnbaum and Merrill, 1985, Slavia
Publishers). Whatever the case, by the late 9th century Common Slavic
was already a thing of the past, and Arpad's entrance in Pannonia had
arguably drove the last nail to its coffin.

True, the toponimy of Transylvania and Banat  regions is Slavic, but
it also has a strong South Slavic character. Therefore, a
Slovak-derived place-name represents a surprising curiosity, unless
its age is not pre-Arpadian but younger,  case in which Zoltan's
"copycat hypothesis" would seem reasonable.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

Hi Hugh!
At 05:32 PM 7/30/96 EDT, you wrote:

>On lecso:  do any of you have experience with a version made with freshly-
>picked mushrooms instead of any other sausage or meat?  My closest Czech
>friends frequently do this when we've been out after mushrooms (the
>favorite is a species of boletus, but it uses whatever we found that day).
>Made from all fresh ingredients, it is delicious!

I believe that in Hungary that would be two seperate dishes, but thanks for
the tip.  Considering my passion for both, a combo might well prove to be
interesting.
Regards,
Aniko

>

_JELIKO > wrote:

>It appears that the Hungarian name for the
>non yet Slavicized Bulgars was Nandor (thus Nandorfehervar for what later
>became Belgrad).

The place-name Belgrad and other various forms such as Velehrad,
Wellegrad, Welgrad, or appellative such as velegrad, velehrad, etc.,
were frequently used in the area. This type of  place-names was
originally used in many languages for a metropolian city:  e.g.,
Belgrad, Weissenburg, Fehervar (i.e., White City, a term used for an
important place. Also cf., Czech velety--to command, and
vele-chram--cathedral church) . Since many of these forms are
associated, in contemporary sources, with Methodius and Sventopolk, I
doubt that Nandorfehervar predates Belgrad.

>The now mainly Slav (icized)
>Bulgarians were the ones who had control of the eastern half of Hungary at
>the time of the "Honfoglalas", as an example Csongrad is a known extant
>Bulgarian stronghold at the time of the conquest. (At that time Serbia was
>centered further south than it is today).

That's not what contemporary sources are saying (see DAI, Regnum
Sclavorum, Bavarian Geographer, and many others).

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

Subject:      Re: Food fights?  I hope not! (Was "kifli" and kifli...)
To: Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >

Dear fellow-listmembers,

<SNIP>

Hugh Agnew says....

While we're talking about food and mutual influences:

On lecso:  do any of you have experience with a version made with freshly-
picked mushrooms instead of any other sausage or meat?  My closest Czech
friends frequently do this when we've been out after mushrooms (the
favorite is a species of boletus, but it uses whatever we found that day).
Made from all fresh ingredients, it is delicious!

Gombasz Bob reports:

Any othe the firm fleshed boleti [varganya or tinoru] make wonderful lecso!
Even agarics such as meadow mushroms [csiperke] or Horse mushrooms [erdoszeli
gomba] will stand up to all that fresh tomato and green peppers! Never use the
Chanterelle or Cantherellus cibarius [Roka gomba] in a tomato dish, you loose
all that delicate apricot aroma and flavor of this mushroom!

Jo etvagyot!!

Bob

On headcheese:  I guess I must have inherited genes for food that other
people find disgusting, but I also like "tlacenka" the Czech version of
headcheese, or its more rustic country cousin "sulc"--not health-food,
exactly, but spread on fresh bread, wonderful.  Perhaps it's all those
generations of haggis-eaters in my background!:-) (Of course haggis is
much improved by what we used to refer to as the "gravy"--scotch whiskey,
preferably single-malt, which is liberally (whoops! there's "that word";-)
doused over the pudding, and complements the bite of the "neeps" or
mashed turnips well).

On the term spa1jz:  I hate to repeat my refrain, but it is common among
at least our Czech friends to refer to the larder by this term (in Czech
the spelling differs, of course, and it's not a "literary" word)... so now
all my kids call it that too.

I'm hungry!  I think I'll go home and try to find a sausage:-).

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew



--- End of forwarded mail from Hungarian Discussion List
>

Just murmuring

Talking about the NBC and the Olympic Games, I have
a remark about the last evening coverage. During
the diving finals the NBC aired a footage about
some Lugouris, if  I write his name correctly.

This guy is a former American olympic gold medalist and
has HIV. He is not a participian of the Games now, he
had the gold back in 1988. At that time he inadvertendly
almost infected his own medical helper with HIV, when
Lugouris got a bleeding wound on his head at a
misfortunate diving at the final. His head was bleeding
in the pool, where the other participians of the
Olympic Games' diving contest jumped into without any
klowledge of the HIV of their fellow contestant,
Lugouris.

I guess it was another nationalistic act on the
part of NBC. They aired this footage of an
irresponsible American athlete from the past, and
celebrated him as a hero of the history of the
Olympic Games.

                                           Sz. Zoli

Zoltan Szekely wrote:
> Mr George Antony Wrote:
> > It is my professional opinion what I write here, (...)
> > Hence, I am unbiased, while this cannot be claimed for the people whose
> > opinion you are trying to present as  purely professional.
> It sounds very firm, although not very convincing.

Especially with your tendentious editing, taking out the bit of my text
pointing out that, unlike the party-political experts you quote, I have
no vested interest in Hungary.

> > So, your line that
> > the "liberals" have pulled the plug on growth for no other reason than
> > ideology is simply risible, and your insistence on it is an insult to
> > your readers' intelligence.
> Maybe not just ideology. Maybe it was strategical. I don't know.

Well, considering that you "don't know", you are making statements about
it with a surprisingly authoritative air.

> > > The first year is always different. The
> > > liberals wanted to force, e.g., Antall into a
> > > 'shock therapy' in the first year of his leader-
> > > ship and they accused him to miss a 'historical
> > > chance', because he did not comply. Why?
> >
> > In my view, because he was economically illiterate, as was most of the
> > leadership.
> Does it sound 'unbiased' to you, huhh? Just funny. Kadar Bela was the
> captain of economy between 90 and 94

Interesting.  Where does it leave Mihaly Kupa who was also around for much
of the time until his falling out with the rest of the government over
economic policy, precisely over the lack of stomach for reform.  My
recollection is that in Hungary the Finance Minister is "the captain of
economy", except that the Prime Minister is the admiral who can cut the
Finance Minister off at the knee, as Antall did.

> and he did an excellent job.

Did he now ?  And how do you measure that ?

Well, instead of unsubstantiated pronouncements, let's see some hard data
from the back issues of The Economist.

Over the year up to May 1994, the last year of the Antall/Boross government,
the following economic indicators have been documented (The Economist,
May 7 1994, p.118):

                GDP growth      inflation rate  current-account deficit
                        %               %               $billion
Czech Rep.              -3              +9.4            nil
Hungary                 -1              +16.6           -3.7
Poland                  +4              +30.2           -2.1

By December 1994, these were as follows (December 24, p.128):

Czech Rep.              +1.2            +10.7           nil
Hungary                 +1.0            +21.0           -3.8
Poland                  +4.3            +33.5           -0.7

Now, up to December 1994 all these longer-term indicators reflect policy
many months before.  Even if the incoming Horn government had introduced
a radical change in economic policy, it would not have impacted on the
above measures, but they DID NOT, not until a year after they took office,
precisely because of the deteriorating situation that these figures reflect.

For it is clear that both Poland had been growing for some time then,
with high inflation but with a reducing government deficit.  This shows
that growth is not fuelled by government borrowing, and it is sustainable
as long as inflation is also reduced.

The Czech Republic had just turned the corner, with growth picking up.
Inflation grew somewhat, but not significantly, while the government
deficit remained zero.

Hungary has also started to grow, but the source of that is obvious:
"pump priming" by the government.  Inflation grew at over twice the
rate of the other countries and government deficit remained extremely
high an an internationally exceptional over 10% of the GDP (October 8,
p. 124). Such artificially-induced growth is not sustainable and will run
out of steam as soon as the money the government is pumping into the
economy stops.  For it must be stopped after a while, or the result is
hyperinflation and a complete implosion of the economy.  And what the
Horn government did, after one full year of prevarication, against its
electoral promises and against its ideological convictions, is to stop
the money to avoid the catastrophe.

So much for you parrotted line that "Hungary was ready for growth" in 1994:
the anaemic Hungarian economy was merely given a large dose of caffeine
instead of the medicine it needed.  This may cause the patient to stir
a bit but it does not last and makes matters worse in the long run.  It
was an irresponsible act on part of the government to do so (fuelled by a
premonition of election loss), and it is pathetic of you to regurgitate their
propaganda without the slightest understanding of what was going on and
without any attempt to think about it.

> He is
> also a member of the international 'Blue Ribbon Committee', which offered
> a reasonable strategy for the transition in Hungary in 89-90.

Reasonable for whom, and by what standards ?  You keep throwing around
these praises without any proof at all: it is beginning to sound pretty
vacuous.

> Are the
> economists of the Blue Ribbon Committee all illiterate?

I have no idea.  It may come as a great surprise to you, but the Blue
Ribbon COmmittee is not considered the ultimate authority in matters
economic.  I haven't even heard about it, and a search on the WWW was
no help either.

> > And, quod erat demonstrandum, he did miss a historical chance.
> The reasoning, the liberals provided with their offer for Antall for making
> a 'shock therapy' in 1990, was that the voters would accept it as the first
> step of a new government. In other words, it was automatic in the liberal
> way of thinking that 'the first year does not count'.

Or perhaps they meant that straight after the change of politico-economic
systems there is public acceptance that sacrifices are necessary for a
successful economic transformation, and after a while this consensus
evaporates as people are getting fed up by hardship that is seemingly
endless and is without apparent long-term benefits.  As is the case in
Hungary now, with delayed reforms finally carried out in an environment of
economic austerity.

> Ot it does not count only if it is not you, who are the government?!
> Guillotine is fun until your own neck is in danger?

What are you blabbling about ?  The "liberals" (you presumably mean the
SzDSz) ARE in government now, and ARE carrying out the reforms that they
said should have been carried out long ago.  And they are doing it in
the full knowledge that their neck IS in danger.

> Hmmm... Well, it may be
> a good observation. And also wonderfully reveals some 'clever tactic' on
> the liberal wing.

This is a pathetically bad observation, followed by incoherent rubbish.

> (The other funny thing in this story is, that in 1990 the SzDSz wanted to
> force the newly elected Prime Minister Antall to perform the liberal agenda
> in economy, instead of performing the economic programme of his own
> winning party! Talking about the aggressivity of the loser.)

This is another well-worn canard from you that doesn't fly.  How, I pray,
can the minority opposition "force" the Prime Minister to "perform the liberal
agenda" ? Hold a gun to his head ?  Kidnap his daughter ?  Certainly not
in parliament, as they are, remember, the OPPOSIION, and by definition
outvoted by the government.  On the other hand, in a parliamentary
democracy, the opposition is well within its rights to criticize the
government's policy and offer an alternative to it.  But then you have
obviously very little understanding of what a parliamentary democracy is.

> > Hungary's relative economic situation was much worse compared to other
> > Central European countries after the Antall/Boross government's four years
> > than when they took office.
> Is it another nice piece of your 'unadulterated rubbish mantra'?
> In Hungary most of the people, and many of the experts think
> otherwise.

You can see the figures above for the 1994 situation.  As far as 1990
is concerned, it is truism that Hungary was much further down the reform
path than the other countries, and pretending otherwise only makes you
and the "experts" that you quote a laughing stock.

For popular opinion, the May 7 1994 issue of The Economist (p. 58) quotes
a Hungarian poll that found that only 18% of Hungarians (in Hungary, that
is!) thought that they were better off than before.  And may I just remind
you of that other poll, the one at the ballot box, in which the voters gave
an over 50% majority to the Socialists, increasing the vote of the SzDSz and
sending the MDF to the margin of the political scene.  Also note that to this
day the MDF has not recovered its popularity after that defeat, so most
people in fact disagree with you and bear some grudge against them.

As for your "experts", I have already demonstrated what they are worth.

> And not only in the side of the political opposition.

What is that supposed to mean ?  That the current government parties think
that the MDF-lead coalition improved Hungary's relative economic position
in Central Europe over their four year rule ?  Fascinating, but unless you
quote evidence from a respectable and widely-available source I can only
call this another proof of your waffling about without any factual basis.

> Take heed of that!

You should start looking for facts instead of offering meaningless gratuitous
advice like that.

And by the way of Slovakia that you have been insisting upon the other day:
now I can quote statistics about the reforms that were pushed with much
greater vigour in Slovakia than in Hungary.  In particular, while in 1989
the private sector gave 20% of Hungary's GDP and only 4% of Slovakia's,
in 1994 they were the same at 55% (The Economist, November 5, p.52),
indicating a much greater extent of capitalist conversion in Slovakia.
For an explanation, see the August 13 issue of The Economist: the Moravcik
government (in between Meciar's turns at the helm) that followed a very
pro-capitalist, small-government, conservative political and economic
agenda, as opposed to Antall's statist and right-wing radical line.  The
results were there: compared to the above figures for Hungary, the 1994
forecast was a small but positive GDP change, with inflation reducing from
25% in 1993 to 15%.

George Antony

In article >,
 says...
>
>Though lecso (leco with soft mark on c for SLovak/Czech) has many
>variations, what makes it lecso, not just a vegetable dish?  I thought
it
>had to be green peppers and later tomatoes stirred into browned onions &
>sausage slices (particularly hot spicy meat).  Should it be prepared
>only in
>the summer when fresh peppers and tomatoes are available?  (It was a
>sort of sacrilege to use greenhouse stuff in midwinter.)  Is it those
>three ingredients that make it lecso?  And is scrambling eggs into it
just
>for sissies?
>
>  Once I bought
>the wrong paprikas and literally they made a blue smoke when heated with
>the meat.  The whole neighborhood was aware of my ignorant mistake.
>
>Norma Rudinsky
>
>
Lecso can be made in more than one way.  THe basic ingredients are onion,
pepper (best with the yellow pepper, which is available in Canada between
August and October) and tomato.  Scrambled eggs with lecso are very
popular.  The most popular variation is with rice and wieners or
"debreceni"sausages.  I make a lot of basic lecso when the yellow pepper
and tomatoes are in season and freeze it in plastic containers.  Then, in
the winter, I just add rice and the sausages. Watch and don't buy the hot
variety if you don't like it hot.

Agnes


>On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Burian wrote:
>
>> How about lecso?  I'm told there are different variations.  When
people
>> took me to restaurants in BP, they kept steering me to the "English"
>> dishes.  And I kept shouting, "Bring me lecso!"  They said, "But that
is a
>> poor person's dish."  I said, "Then I qualify."  They could not
believe
>> any of this, but I got my lecso.
>>
>> Do only poor people eat this?  And what are the variation
possibilities?
>>

At 12:35 AM 7/30/96 GMT, George Szaszvari wrote:

>Firstly a question: with regard to the point about *government grants*,
>doesn't every earner contribute to state education in USA and Canada
>via income tax, as well as local taxes, rates, etc, like Britain and
>most other places?

Yes - more or less.  By the way, Canada has provinces, not states.

>Secondly, of course, everyone pays for state education. Ms Balogh seems
>to think that only her education matters and that she shouldn't contribute
>anyone else's education. Perhaps she should be introduced to the idea that
>it is in the interest of the *whole* community to have on-going state
>education not only paid for by earners before the advent of Ms Balogh in
>North America, but also after!

Some people falsely believe that anything that is in the interest of the
whole community is not in their interest.

>Another question: aren't annual alumni contributions a complete red-
>herring to the argument?

They're voluntary.  I guess if Eva Balogh feels burdened by taxes and other
expenses she could stop her contributions.  Mentioning the alumni
contributions is not a red-herring.  It just weakens her argument.

<snip>

>Were the aforesaid compensation so *meagre*, what is so noble about
>investing it on the Hungarian stock exchange? Should the recipient of
>the meagre compensation frequently travel to Hungary and have interests
>there, does it not smack of a shrewd self-interested gamble, rather
>than any nobler-than-most-others-on-the-Internet line that Ms Balogh
>is trying to sell to the world.

Yes.  Isn't capitalism wonderful?  It's a win-win system.  You can help your
community while you help yourself.  In time we'll all become incredibly
rich.  No wonder capitalists don't like utopian thinkers.  They're unfair
competition.

>After all, a meagre amount of Hungarian
>forints isn't going to buy many dollars and think of all those commission
>charges when exchanging foreign currencies into dollars that reduce the
>number of dollars even further.

What's the matter with you, George?  Didn't you see "Cabaret"?  "Money makes
the world go round, the world go round, the world go round...."

>I'm afraid that canonization of Ms Balogh
>as one-of-the-very-few-noble-patriots-on-the-Internet Saint Eva of the
>Hungarian economy, will have to wait for another incarnation (when she
>might learn to bullshit less transparently.)

Do you not like her, George?

>Buying Hungarian exports in North America on a regular basis, arranging
>such exports, opening a business, or becoming a partner in a business
>in Hungary, etc, etc, might make a more convincing story about helping
>the Hungarian economy, warranting canonization, rather than speculating
>on the Hungarian stock exchange.

Buying Hungarian exports may not help the Hungarian economy any more than
speculating on the Hungarian stock market.  The only ones to benefit from
either are those who get to keep the profits.  And why do I suspect that
it's not the Hungarian public?  But then again, why not buy Hungarian?  It's
the same story in every nation.

Joe Szalai

In article
>,
 says...
>
>One of the worst stuff I can imagine (I was asked to try it
>when I was in kid) is disnosajt (also known as kocsonya)
>It is all the stuff that should have been thrown away...
>preserved in Aspic!  Yeeechh!!!

Disznosajt is not kocsonya!  I was wondering when someone will mention
it.  The kocsonya I make is from the csulok (foot?).  When the meat is
soft, I clean it from all the stuff that should go into the garbage, cut
the pure meat into pieces and put it, with the water in which it was
cooked - which will become the aspic - into a mold.  It is beautiful when
I serve it and it tastes great too!.

Agnes

At 08:07 PM 7/30/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely wrote:

>I guess it was another nationalistic act on the
>part of NBC. They aired this footage of an
>irresponsible American athlete from the past, and
>celebrated him as a hero of the history of the
>Olympic Games.

What's your point?

Joe Szalai

There are many of Americans who are equally disgusted at
the NBC coverage.  It is the subject of discussion on many
radio talk shows - how viewers don't want to see just
Americans in the Olympics.

The coverage is sad and amateurish.  And NBC has won the
bid for the next 3 Olympics, hasn't it?

Sad.

--------------------------------
J. Rice

Yes, Gabor.  You are wasting your time.  Don Quijote comes into
mind...There will always be Nemenyis, Zundels, etc., and the more
attention we give to them, the more they will scream their poison.

Agnes


In article >,
 says...
>
>Since I received a few requests to prove that Nemenyi is an antisemite,
I
>went back to the Forum archives to find out a little more about Nemenyi
and
>his writings. At the beginning I didn't know how to search the archives
>efficiently, so I went fishing, looking for his name. Surprise,
surprise, on
>12/9/94 Zoli Szekely, at that time  writes to
him,
>as follows:
>
>"It seems you lost your legendary cold blood. I did not call you a Nazi
or a
>fascist. All I said was that the ugly guessing game about the biological
>origins of the central figure of Christianity is close to the views of
>Rosenberg, one of those convicted in the Nuremberg trials.".
>
>I assume this was in response to a posting by Nemenyi on 12-7-94 from
>aps.anl.gov  (at 1:44pm). On 12-9-94 (again from the anl.gov account, at
>1.24PM) he explains that Arabs are Semites (I assume he is into the
>explaining of antisemitism again).  On 12-24-94 (now from

>) he writes: "Indeed very alarming news are arriving about a new wave of
>honfoglalas, whose goal is our country. According to Uj Hidfo's August
94
>issue George Soros discussed the transfer of 200,000 Jews with he
>cooperation of the IMF. The first transports are scheduled for
March-April
>and the building of Hungarian Kibbutzim is accelerated. [...] The
>honfoglalas is not a new phenomenon in our country, in the beginning of
the
>eighteen hundreds rabbi Moishe Montefiori declared: Jewish Brothers!
Hungary
>and Galicia must be ours! (Weimarer Historisch Genealoges Taschenbuch
1912)
>[research, research, everywhere, GDF] Edgar Bronfman, the president of
World
>Association of Jews talked to Gyula Horn about the issue of reparations,
>issue that was pulled out again, issue that apparently has became part
of
>this new honfoglalas. "
>
>On 12-23-94 (from ) , in response to VA, who
apparently
>thought that Nemenyi and Pellionisz are one and the same, Nemenyi
writes: "
>Although your orthography is perfect, you are still DIFFERENT. I suggest
you
>Hungarize your name let s say to rozenberg, otherwise someone may
confuse
>you with a Slav who speaks Hungarian and who accidentally peeked into a
>Hungarian-language debate forum."
>
>On 12-24-94 (again from ): "Let's read a little from
an
>American economic and political magazine:... European "productive
Triangle"
>program to develop the new eastern democracies and Kissinger's
neo-liberal
>economic looting policies, personified by George Soros and Jeffrey
Sachs..."
>(the quote in Nemenyi's posting is in English). Further he writes: " The
>local [US] economists understand what's going on. Those who have a
Federal
>Reserve Bank that is not Federal and not reserve, those know why the
world's
>richest country went bankrupt in 1933 (see Roosevelt's Executive Orders
>6073, 6102, 6111 & 6260). Isn't this the same New World Order whose
active
>member is Soros? [...] The World Constitution signed by the reagan
(sic!)
>leadership in 1980 (Unido Treaty#9719) wouldn't qualify as treason in
the
>US, since it placed the US Constitution below the UN Constitution?  We
are
>not talking about Soros and Jews but about money and power." Later
Nemenyi
>writes: "Wouldn't we be better off if we could keep our culture in our
own
>hands? If the soros monies would not make universities to teach liberal
>world views? ...If the soros-kind liberal world wants to help us, they
>should eliminate our debts."
>
>On 12-26-94 (and now from another address, ):
"Politics
>forces many people into compromises. Many praised Imre Nagy although in
the
>bottom of their hearts they knew he was bad.  Or they defend Horthy,
despite
>the fact they know he was a free-mason and he took part in the Jewish
>question..."
>
>On January 1, 1995 : "it is easy to state the tragedy of 1956 was caused
by
>the Americans . ...The main reason was the lack of humanity of the
soviet
>communism, whose being was approved by the Western powers in 1945. To
this
>add the RFE broadcasts and the false illusion that the USA and Soviet
Union
>are mortal enemies.". He also says: "also the relatively well-trained
>work-force [of the Hungarian refugees] benefitted the Americans." This
quote
>is not about antisemitism, I just found it interesting.
>
>At this point of my "snooping" I found out how to search the Forum
archives.
>I found 16 pages listing Forum issues that contained postings in which
the
>word Nemenyi appeared. I went through 3 pages and copied his postings
from
>those issues into an MS Word file. It came up to 50 pages.  Considering
that
>I did not search for files with NPA (the name he has been using for a
long
>time), I assume that his postings may add up to several hundred (maybe
over
>a thousand) pages, most of it from his work-place, at various hours.
When
>did he work?
>
>Here are a few of his pearls, posted form :
>
>3/19/93, 1:34PM: "It is a tradition created by Trotsky (Leon Brownstein)
and
>inherited into the Hungarian interNazi present at past from the red
colored
>workers' paradise systems."
>
>3/23/93, 8:23 AM: "That Rakosi was a Hungarian politician, that's
>technically incorrect. A politician makes politics and that's how
becomes a
>politician. ... his rule can be compared to that of Pontius Pilate. Can
we
>state that he was a Jewish politician? Although he was making life and
death
>decisions about the Jews and represented Roman law."
>
>3/25/93, 3:26PM: "The Jewish news-chain from ancient times was
transferred
>to the primitive Europe and it helped the building of a bank-hegemony."
>
>4/23/93, 10:35AM : "Within a unified Hungarian nation it is strange if
our
>internal politics are continuously divided by non-Hungarian influences,
and
>people grab each others' throats because of their Slav-German-Jewish
power
>interests and some voices try to accentuate that of all views the
Hungarian
>ones are the worst."
>
>5/13/93, 1:09 PM: [responding to someone who questions whether it makes
any
>sense to request territories back where a large proportion of the
population
>is Romanian]. "The era of famous saying, Never Again, that does not
apply to
>everyone. If the Balkans could introduce the LIBERALly handled and
tacitly
>approved idea of ethnic cleansing, used lately by both Serbs and Croats,
>then if we sold our souls to the devils sitting on mountains of money
[he is
>using an un-translatable play of words: BANKohegy], than we could also
>receive the license. Sure, we would have to apply for the license to
clean
>without destruction, which would include first-class train
transportation,
>because licenses for sawing in two, mass-shooting, etc. was used up by
Snow
>White souls of the Nazi-free countries..."
>
>5/18,93 9:53AM: "[Trianon] Hurt my father, hurt my mother, hurt me also.
>...I am not sure it hurt [rabbi] Landeszman Gyuri."
>
>6/4/93, 2:56PM: "Here the ideas and directions do not struggle based on
the
>rules of the old Forum but by the old motto  those are trying to gain
power
>who don't consider anything dear that is Hungarian, because Hungarian
>culture, belief and morality is cheap in their eyes.   They adore their
old
>gods in new clothing, their names being profit, advantage, power..."
>
>7/14/93, 2:09 PM: "... I recommend the Hebrew language book, published
in
>Jerusalem in 1941, Khazar Conversion to Judaism or the book published in
>1951, Khazaria -The History of a Jewish Kingdom in Europe. I think these
>sources would be a good introduction in understanding of the
nationalistic
>aspirations that now are of international proportions , and their
>unfortunate Hungarian connections."
>
>In the same place he says: " ...they are categorized as antisemites,
which
>is a big lie [HANDA-BANDA] because the Jews in Hungary are almost
>exclusively descendants of the Ashkenazi-Khazars, who have nothing
genetical
>or historical in common with the Palestinian or Sephardic Jews, and
chose
>the Jewish religion only for political reasons, 740 years after Jesus'
>death." [Semitic, again]
>
>8/9/93, 9:32 AM: "It is worth thinking about why did Poland get 50%
>reduction in its debts?... Maybe in their country there are more Poles
than
>in ours Hungarians, and therefore their cries reach easier the ears of
>those, sitting on the money-bags?"
>
>8/17/93, 1:13 PM: "...the liberal magic number of 800,000.. after all it
is
>so comfortable to say: 800,000 Jewish victims, 800,000 registered party
>members, 800,000 Gypsy minority and now: 800,000 public servants."
>
>I don't have the stomach to do more of this. My wife thinks I am crazy
>wasting this time on Nemenyi. She is probably right.
>
>Sorry for the size of this posting. I won't do it again.
>
>Gabor D. Farkas

So much time and effort devoted to bashing diszno'sajt as a disgusting
food, and nobody mentions the infamous Pa'lpusztai cheese: the one that
is so mature that some consider it off, reminiscent of a block of
Camembert left out in the Sun for a few days in Summer and dried up
so that it is not runny.

Mind you, Hungarian opionion is just as split on the merits of Pa'lpusztai
cheese: my father loves it (but it has to almost crawl by itself to be
really 'good'), while I think it is much worse than the infamous tropical
fruit durian.  At least with diszno'sajt you can close your eyes and
think that you are eating a proper food (well, except for the large
bits of cartilage crunching under the teeth, brrrrrrrr): with Pa'lpusztai
you have to suspend breathing while eating it, AND close your eyes.
Durian you can look at, although better not breathe.

The only use I could so far find for Pa'lpusztai was to smear it under the
desk of a hated classmate in primary school and enjoy the commotion.
Marginally more hygienic than dog poo, but just as effective.

And, yes, I know that the Czechs (and Slovaks) have something very similar,
but Hugh will need to tell us what it is actually called.

George Antony

Sam Stowe wrote:
>  And haven't Hungarians ever heard of pickled
> pig's feet?

Nah, we smoke 'em, well the shanks, actually.  No proper bean soup is
made without it.  But c'mon, smoked pig trotters are so ordinary,
they are standard supermarket fodder in Australia where most people
would not touch anything more radical than lamb chops or steak and
I tend to introduce the locals to kangaroo meat.

> Sam "Oh, yeah and beef tongue...they eat that down here too" Stowe

Ditto smoked and then cooked: great stuff.  Or lamb's tongues: small
enough to dangle them down your gullet in one piece ;-)

George Antony

JELIKO wrote:


>I do not know the details only the end result. At least those I know at
>PNNL or others at Hanford did not state that other than the indicated cause
>was brought up by anyone. I do presume that there was an investigation of
>some sort leading to the discharge.

Thanks for your answer. As long as the the employer has a policy which
is not made void by another policy with opposite guide lines, I wouldn't
protest if it is being enforced. But when the policy is not so uniform
within the establishment, or the enforcement is used for selective
punishment, I am  becoming a little  suspicious.

And if all of this is toppled with the punishment against free speech, then
I say, the whole case stinks.

NPA.

At 02:34 PM 7/30/96 -0400, Zoli Fekete wrote:

>In our family it was sort of neat - both
>my parents liking the lower leg (I can't fathom what's good about bones
>and skin, but they do), while me taking all the drumsticks :-).

I wonder when this was. When there wasn't enough to go around, mothers had
the tendency to like legs and other parts with no meat on them. I clearly
remember a period when my mother was never hungry around dinner time.

Gabor D. Farkas

 (ne ) wrote Sat Jul 20 23:59:47 EDT
1996 HUNGARY #734

>> Felado :  [United States]
>> >        Oh, I admit. It was an "icipici szabadsagharc," and hardly anyone
>> >calls it that.
>> >
>> >        Eva Balogh
>>
>> Whoever can say that must be  an "icipici tortenesz"
>
>This little exchange shows very clearly how debates about issues are
>transformed into debates about persons. Whether 56 was a "szabadsa1gharc"
has
>been debated many times, and rather heatedly, on HUNGARY.  Here the
compromise
>offered by E1va (that it was an "itsy bitsy war of independence") is
obviously
>ironic, but nevertheless it is still about the issue. NFerenc's response
that
>E1va Balogh is an "itsy bitsy historian" is an out and out personal attack.
>The issue is now irrelevant: what remains is NFerenc's clear desire to have
>the last word and win some rhethorical points. When the other readers cheer
>and congratulate the instigators of such attacks, the virtual community is
>just taken over by thugs, as happened on FORUM.
>
>Andra1s Kornai

Pity poor innocent Andra's, so upset about a terrible personal attack on Eva,
who never attacks anyone personally.  Neither does Andra's, of course.  When
he calls others scumbag and a nazi, he clearly intends to compliment them.

Please, Andra's, get a life; if Eva's remark (showing a remarkable lack of
judgement and being a plain affront to the memory of the thousands who died
fighting communism) was "obviously ironic", why can't you dismiss mine as a
mild quip?  Does your sense of humor fail you when the shoe is on the other
foot?  Your thin-skinned sensitivity is pathetic.

Apparently the topic of the 1956 revolution is still a sensitive one for you
for some reason.  In that you are not alone; there are others who would
rather forget it ever happened.  Of course they - and you - must know this
will show them for what they are.

I have no "clear desire to have the last word" as you suggest.  I hereby
permit you to do so if you must.  Or ask Eva to do it for you.

Ferenc

P.S. As to this list being taken over by thugs, just whom do you have in
mind?